General consensus on cost benefit analysis for law schools? Forum

[SFrost]

Dude, you're a 0L, why are you so mad all the time. I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack just reading your posts.

You're right, that did come across as angry. I don't think I'm an angry person; I suppose I need to reassess my (online) life. Thanks, Everyman.

Ya, ya jerk!

[guano]

There are a lot of jobs out there for middling law graduates

No, there aren't. There are roughly 45,000 law students graduating every year, and an estimated 25,000 job opportunities for new lawyers opening up every year.

The other thing to consider is that while a probability weighted cost/benefit analysis will show that law school makes sense financially, it's not like you're taking your paycheck to the casino and placing a bet. If you lose the law school game, you lose at life. It's like russian roulette - loser dies
(actually, it's more like glengarry glen ross)

[A. Nony Mouse]

There are a lot of jobs out there for middling law graduates and 50k really isn't that much for someone to take an informed risk on.

I mean, I went to a middling law school and my classmates all pretty much have jobs by now, but I'd like to know what jobs you're talking about, too. And the problem isn't necessarily someone taking out 50K, because that's an incredibly low debt load for most law schools these days.

I'm reluctant to say no one should EVER go to a school with an LST score below [insert number here] or no one should EVER pay sticker for [insert school with LST score whatever here], in part because people would have told me not to go where I did. But there are too many lawyers and many people who go to lower-ranked schools will pay a shitload of money and not get a job that they needed a JD to get. That seems like a pretty shitty position for someone to end up in, and it's that position that posters here want to help applicants avoid.

And as much as I agree that there's a NYC/major market/biglaw bias here (I move in different legal circles and it is different), I don't actually think top law schools really overqualify anyone for pretty much anything. But that's kind of a red herring because no one's saying you have to go to HYS to be a PD in rural Wyoming. (No one is saying your secretary with the guaranteed job should go to HYS, either - it's just most people don't have guaranteed jobs waiting for them.) They're just saying that if you're dead set on being a PD in rural Wyoming, you should go to Wyoming for free because going into a lot of debt to go to Wyoming to be a rural PD is a bad investment. Because either you'll get the PD job and end up servicing massive debt on $40K a year, which sucks, or you won't get the PD job and won't have a lot of other options because you went to Wyoming. (You can substitute small law for PD if you like.)

WillMcAvoy hasn't said don't go to TTTs. Just not to go into debt.

I realize there are people who aren't in a position to put together a good law school application, but those are the breaks. Maybe those people don't get to be lawyers. Or maybe they have to take a different path around.

I say this as someone who also came out of academia, where the job prospects are so bad, law looks great by comparison. But that doesn't actually make law's prospects good, just because they're better than almost the most terrible job market out there.

[SFrost]

To guano: Show me a field where there's close to 100% employment? I've already said that the decision to attend law school involves risk. A high percentage of small businesses fail, should people not start businesses? A high percentage of assistant professors fail to acquire tenure, is academia a bad choice? You take the compilation of your skill and motivation, the quality of the institution, the employment outcomes, and the debt and you arrive at a risk/reward profile that is highly personal. No one here can make that decision for an individual.

A. Nony Mouse: I agree with most of what you said. I would like to clarify that I was specifically talking about debt-financed cost of living. I honestly think that there is not a single ABA-accredited school that isn't a viable option for some individuals with ~50k debt (about COL for three years).

And you're spot on about the different perceptions coming from science. There are living geniuses in science who are tops of their field who make ~120,000/year. I would propose that many of the most intelligent professionals are in science working for less than 80k/year. Science track, in my opinion, puts the legal field to shame in the quality of talent and skill that are refined at the top. I believe fairly average people can be quite successful in law and even very below average people can take a calculated risk for success. The distillation in science is so much more severe than law. I think people are too spoiled by middle class upbringings.

[BigZuck]

lol

[cotiger]

SCIENCE

Sounds like a good job to me.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I honestly think that there is not a single ABA-accredited school that isn't a viable option for some individuals with ~50k debt (about COL for three years).

I think this is vastly overstating the case for quite a few ABA-accredited law schools. There are some people who will come out of schools like Thomas Jefferson or Cooley with jobs that will make this debt manageable, sure. But there aren't nearly enough of such people to justify those schools' existence. A law school shouldn't be able to get by based on the existence of a few who were either lucky or good or both. Even with concerns about access to the profession for students coming out of underprivileged/non-traditional backgrounds, these schools aren't worth it, because for every student who succeeds, there are more who end up worse (or no better) off than they started.

[guano]

To guano: Show me a field where there's close to 100% employment?

Off the top of my head, I know that actuary studies have an employment rate of approximately 95%

[Balthy]

To guano: Show me a field where there's close to 100% employment?

Off the top of my head, I know that actuary studies have an employment rate of approximately 95%

Also, septic tank cleaners, though I would rather be unemployed.

[John Everyman]

To guano: Show me a field where there's close to 100% employment?

Off the top of my head, I know that actuary studies have an employment rate of approximately 95%

Also, septic tank cleaners, though I would rather be unemployed.

Should've been a murse...good employment, good schedules, 60k+ yearly, all the women you can ask for...

[guano]

A high percentage of small businesses fail, should people not start businesses?

Also, this isn't comparable - bank loans are vetted and capped. And, if you fail, they're forgiven in bankruptcy.

Student loans are available to any one, without regard to probability of success, and amounts are not based on anything other than what tuition costs

[SFrost]

A high percentage of small businesses fail, should people not start businesses?

Also, this isn't comparable - bank loans are vetted and capped. And, if you fail, they're forgiven in bankruptcy.

Student loans are available to any one, without regard to probability of success, and amounts are not based on anything other than what tuition costs

Apples and oranges. IBR and PAYE are pretty generous. The bank loans thing is pretty variable as well. And chapter 11/13 and 7 each have their own disadvantages. People can and do take major risk running businesses and wind up far more ruined than law school graduates.

And no one, not a one, in this thread has argued for reckless student loans. In the context of this thread your post is vapid. I've been specifically arguing for low amounts of debt based primarily on cost of living and balanced by the value of a J.D.

This thread: lack of real world experiences, naive worldviews, and a curious deficiency in reading comprehension. Good job on being irrelevant, TLSers.

[guano]

This thread: lack of real world experiences, naive worldviews, and a curious deficiency in reading comprehension. Good job on being irrelevant, TLSers.

I can't argue the reading comprehension part, but the rest of this is pretty lol worth