Not cut out for it - help me make a switch Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm in M&A at a V5, and I don't think I can handle this life. I really just think I'm not cut out for biglaw (and M&A in particular) -- the constant urgency, tight deadlines, lack of sleep and being on call 24/7 have me feeling totally burned out and depressed, and it's only been a few months where I've been really busy. I've become overwhelmed with anxiety and wake up every morning filled with dread.

I don't know what to do really. I just want a normal job that let's me live a normal life, where I can spend time with my family, friends and SO, and not be crushed with work and filled with anxiety.

I have limited experience - 2020 grad, started in lit then switched to M&A. Don't think I'm qualified to go in-house, and don't know whether going to another firm would actually give me something manageable with a real work-life balance. Don't know whether I should try to switch practice areas (again), go back to lit, or stick with M&A but try to go somewhere less intense (don't know if that exists within M&A). I've talked to recruiters, who have encouraged me to look at some "lifestyle" firms, but I really don't know if that's real thing, and don't want to ditch my V5 and end up still working crazy hours for less pay / worse exit opps.

Can anyone provide some advice? I am more than willing to take a (significant) pay cut if it means I can live life like a normal human -- the money isn't worth it to me anymore, and I'm at the end of my rope.

Very much appreciate any thoughts, or words of encouragement! Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

I think the main issue is that you're at a V5. Certain companies and firms have reputations. Go to a less prestigious one, and it will still be busy at times, but not as soulcrushing. If possible, also go to a market which is less intense (so not NY). But I've also heard of certain firms for example in NY (A&O) that have very easy lives.

[Anonymous User]

I think the main issue is that you're at a V5. Certain companies and firms have reputations. Go to a less prestigious one, and it will still be busy at times, but not as soulcrushing. If possible, also go to a market which is less intense (so not NY). But I've also heard of certain firms for example in NY (A&O) that have very easy lives.

Thank you very much for the response. So you think it's true that I can go to a less prestigious firm and get my life back? Do you have any thoughts on whether I need to get out of M&A if I want to have a life -- or is there a practice area I should be targeting for better work-life balance in your view (at this point, I'm willing to do whatever practice area will give me a more normal life)?

Appreciate the assistance!

[nealric]

I think the main issue is that you're at a V5. Certain companies and firms have reputations. Go to a less prestigious one, and it will still be busy at times, but not as soulcrushing. If possible, also go to a market which is less intense (so not NY). But I've also heard of certain firms for example in NY (A&O) that have very easy lives.

Thank you very much for the response. So you think it's true that I can go to a less prestigious firm and get my life back? Do you have any thoughts on whether I need to get out of M&A if I want to have a life -- or is there a practice area I should be targeting for better work-life balance in your view (at this point, I'm willing to do whatever practice area will give me a more normal life)?

Appreciate the assistance!

I think NYC V5 M&A tends to be a special kind of hell when it comes to hours and intensity in biglaw. Being a junior is doubly bad because you have a lot less visibility on when things might be coming up. A secondary market M&A job at a lower-tier firm is likely to be a lot less hectic. It won't be a 9-5, but the office is unlikely to be humming at midnight. At the very least, it's worth checking out. A couple more years at a v20-80 firm would allow you to be a competitive candidate for an in-house gig if you end up deciding biglaw isn't for your at all. Do you have ties to another market?

[Anonymous User]

I think the main issue is that you're at a V5. Certain companies and firms have reputations. Go to a less prestigious one, and it will still be busy at times, but not as soulcrushing. If possible, also go to a market which is less intense (so not NY). But I've also heard of certain firms for example in NY (A&O) that have very easy lives.

Thank you very much for the response. So you think it's true that I can go to a less prestigious firm and get my life back? Do you have any thoughts on whether I need to get out of M&A if I want to have a life -- or is there a practice area I should be targeting for better work-life balance in your view (at this point, I'm willing to do whatever practice area will give me a more normal life)?

Appreciate the assistance!

I think NYC V5 M&A tends to be a special kind of hell when it comes to hours and intensity in biglaw. Being a junior is doubly bad because you have a lot less visibility on when things might be coming up. A secondary market M&A job at a lower-tier firm is likely to be a lot less hectic. It won't be a 9-5, but the office is unlikely to be humming at midnight. At the very least, it's worth checking out. A couple more years at a v20-80 firm would allow you to be a competitive candidate for an in-house gig if you end up deciding biglaw isn't for your at all. Do you have ties to another market?

Thanks very much for this. Unfortunately don't really have ties to any market other than NYC and my SO has a good job here, so changing markets likely isn't in the cards.

Do you think the best move would be targeting a V20-80, rather than something more mid-law or smaller? I want to make sure I have the chance to go in-house in a couple years in case firm/biglaw life is just not for me, but I just genuinely don't know how much more I can take (on a mental health level) doing M&A biglaw -- it has been a hellish few months at my V5.

Separately, do I have any options if I really did want to get a 9-5 job, or something close to it, as soon as possible? Of course don't want to make a knee-jerk decision just because I've been beaten up over the last few months, but I do want to think about what "normal" jobs might be out there in NYC for someone like me.

Thanks again very much for your help.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Separately, do I have any options if I really did want to get a 9-5 job, or something close to it, as soon as possible? Of course don't want to make a knee-jerk decision just because I've been beaten up over the last few months, but I do want to think about what "normal" jobs might be out there in NYC for someone like me.

I mean, what are you financial needs? If you can stomach a large paycut, including limited opportunity for promotion/raises, then in-house and government should be on the table. Now would be a good time to start looking so that you can make the hop right after your 2023 bonus hits.

For the "sweet spot" in-house jobs you probably do want one or two more years of firm experience (and also hope for a breezier macro environment).

[Anonymous User]

Look into government positions.

But in my experience, you really should be looking to leave NYC with your boyfriend/girlfriend in the near future. The city is not particularly oriented toward work-life balance (at least within the legal industry), and you will have an easier time taking a pay cut in a city that is not so HCOL.

[existentialcrisis]

Separately, do I have any options if I really did want to get a 9-5 job, or something close to it, as soon as possible? Of course don't want to make a knee-jerk decision just because I've been beaten up over the last few months, but I do want to think about what "normal" jobs might be out there in NYC for someone like me.

I mean, what are you financial needs? If you can stomach a large paycut, including limited opportunity for promotion/raises, then in-house and government should be on the table. Now would be a good time to start looking so that you can make the hop right after your 2023 bonus hits.

For the "sweet spot" in-house jobs you probably do want one or two more years of firm experience (and also hope for a breezier macro environment).

I think lateraling, if you're able to pull it off will help you get closer to the sweet spot though, since you'll prob have a ramp up period at a second firm.

I would probably try to find a firm that doesn't necessarily have an elite M&A practice and try to stick it out for another year or two.

I was vaguely under the impression that the lateral market for corporate associates was pretty bad right now though.

As this poster said, you can probably get an in house job now (and maybe this is the right thing to do if you just can't take it anymore) but it will probably involve very low level, rote work and have limited opportunities for career progression.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks to the posters above.

As far as financial needs, I have a bunch of law school debt - but the last few months have been so taxing on my mental health it's been difficult to put servicing the debt above my well-being. So since I've decided the money isn't worth the pain I have been at least considering government roles so I could potentially leverage loan forgiveness.

Any thoughts on what type of government role would be open to a 2020 grad with a mix of lit and corp experience? Admit that I'm not super familiar with the opportunities available, so greatly appreciate any insight.

And noted on the idea on lateralling to a non-elite M&A group - are there any particular places (or range of firms) in mind where the workload would be more tolerable? Or should I expect it to continue to suck post-lateraling, and just enjoy the ramp up and then try to gut it out for another year or two until I'm more primed for in-house?

Thanks again, all.

[nealric]

OP here. Thanks to the posters above.

As far as financial needs, I have a bunch of law school debt - but the last few months have been so taxing on my mental health it's been difficult to put servicing the debt above my well-being. So since I've decided the money isn't worth the pain I have been at least considering government roles so I could potentially leverage loan forgiveness.

Any thoughts on what type of government role would be open to a 2020 grad with a mix of lit and corp experience? Admit that I'm not super familiar with the opportunities available, so greatly appreciate any insight.

And noted on the idea on lateralling to a non-elite M&A group - are there any particular places (or range of firms) in mind where the workload would be more tolerable? Or should I expect it to continue to suck post-lateraling, and just enjoy the ramp up and then try to gut it out for another year or two until I'm more primed for in-house?

Thanks again, all.

Hard to recommend specific places because it can be very personality dependent, but I think on average you'll find that just about anywhere in the v20-80 range is more chill than your current place. Doesn't mean 9-5 by any stretch, but likely at least some degree more sane.

One recommendation I have is to try your best to network and learn the personalities rather than just calling a recruiter and saying "place me." Recruiters only care if they get their commission, not if you are happy. In fact, if you are unhappy that's an opportunity to place you again and get another commission.

I'd start with people you know from law school. Connect with them, ask how it's going, whether they have a life at their current place, what they've heard about various shops, etc.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks to the posters above.

As far as financial needs, I have a bunch of law school debt - but the last few months have been so taxing on my mental health it's been difficult to put servicing the debt above my well-being. So since I've decided the money isn't worth the pain I have been at least considering government roles so I could potentially leverage loan forgiveness.

Any thoughts on what type of government role would be open to a 2020 grad with a mix of lit and corp experience? Admit that I'm not super familiar with the opportunities available, so greatly appreciate any insight.

And noted on the idea on lateralling to a non-elite M&A group - are there any particular places (or range of firms) in mind where the workload would be more tolerable? Or should I expect it to continue to suck post-lateraling, and just enjoy the ramp up and then try to gut it out for another year or two until I'm more primed for in-house?

Thanks again, all.

Hard to recommend specific places because it can be very personality dependent, but I think on average you'll find that just about anywhere in the v20-80 range is more chill than your current place. Doesn't mean 9-5 by any stretch, but likely at least some degree more sane.

One recommendation I have is to try your best to network and learn the personalities rather than just calling a recruiter and saying "place me." Recruiters only care if they get their commission, not if you are happy. In fact, if you are unhappy that's an opportunity to place you again and get another commission.

I'd start with people you know from law school. Connect with them, ask how it's going, whether they have a life at their current place, what they've heard about various shops, etc.

Thanks again for the thoughts. An additional question if you don't mind -- should I consider at all going back to litigation and maybe looking for a boutique that can offer a good lifestyle? Or switching practice areas again to something other than M&A?

I had moved to corp primarily because I wanted to go in-house, and wanted to go in-house primarily for the work-life balance, but if I can get work-life balance at a smaller firm doing litigation then I'd be open to that path as well. (Know of course that you can't decide for me whether I should switch practice areas, but if you have any insight on whether I could find a litigation firm where the lifestyle is more manageable I'd be grateful).

[Anonymous User]

OP, are you completely clear-headed about the fact that seeking out work-life balance approaching 9-5 in any kind of NYC firm or in-house job is something you should assume is impossible (if only to set expectations for your search)?

It seems like you are holding out for decent pay (given NYC COL) while working normal-ish hours in the private sector. There is a reason that people who want that flee NYC.

[Anonymous User]

OP, are you completely clear-headed about the fact that seeking out work-life balance approaching 9-5 in any kind of NYC firm or in-house job is something you should assume is impossible (if only to set expectations for your search)?

It seems like you are holding out for decent pay (given NYC COL) while working normal-ish hours in the private sector. There is a reason that people who want that flee NYC.

Thanks, yeah, appreciate the reality check. Maybe I'm over-correcting (due to my recent brutal stretch) by saying I want a 9-5. I really just want to get some of my life back - I haven't spent significant quality time with family/friends/SO in 3 months. While it would be great of course, I don't expect/need to get rid of any and all night/weekend work, but do want it to be the exception rather than the rule - I think I'd be OK with, say, 1800 billables/year as a max. Genuinely appreciate a continued reality check if you think that also sounds impossible.

[Anonymous User]

OP, are you completely clear-headed about the fact that seeking out work-life balance approaching 9-5 in any kind of NYC firm or in-house job is something you should assume is impossible (if only to set expectations for your search)?

It seems like you are holding out for decent pay (given NYC COL) while working normal-ish hours in the private sector. There is a reason that people who want that flee NYC.

Thanks, yeah, appreciate the reality check. Maybe I'm over-correcting (due to my recent brutal stretch) by saying I want a 9-5. I really just want to get some of my life back - I haven't spent significant quality time with family/friends/SO in 3 months. While it would be great of course, I don't expect/need to get rid of any and all night/weekend work, but do want it to be the exception rather than the rule - I think I'd be OK with, say, 1800 billables/year as a max. Genuinely appreciate a continued reality check if you think that also sounds impossible.

I disagree with this assessment. I don’t think 9-5 in house is unrealistic at all honestly.

Edit: accidental anon. This is existentialcrisis

[emc91]

You’ve gotta get out of the V5 and NYC. I’m at a West Coast based firm that’s like a V50 and have a particularly low tolerance for lack of sleep and frankly it’s been mostly fine. Too much for me to want to do forever but my life mostly feels normal most of the time. I’d definitely look to lateral to a different firm if you want to keep banking biglaw money.

[Sad248]

I honestly think you should stick to biglaw. I've heard horror stories about smaller firms as well, and it's not like that will look as good on your resume as a biglaw firm. I'd try and do some research, try and scope out what firms and groups are busy and which ones aren't and go from there and then just roll the dice a bit when you get an opportunity that you think might work.

Also, be assertive about protecting your time. I'm not in NYC, so YMMV, but I've had juniors straight up tell me they were too busy for a few short assignments. If you work so had you're burning out and you have to quit, you're not doing yourselves any favors, so maybe be a bit more of a slacker and see how it goes. Maybe they'll fire you, but at the pace you are going, you'll guaranteed have to quit at some point.

[trebekismyhero]

OP, are you completely clear-headed about the fact that seeking out work-life balance approaching 9-5 in any kind of NYC firm or in-house job is something you should assume is impossible (if only to set expectations for your search)?

It seems like you are holding out for decent pay (given NYC COL) while working normal-ish hours in the private sector. There is a reason that people who want that flee NYC.

Thanks, yeah, appreciate the reality check. Maybe I'm over-correcting (due to my recent brutal stretch) by saying I want a 9-5. I really just want to get some of my life back - I haven't spent significant quality time with family/friends/SO in 3 months. While it would be great of course, I don't expect/need to get rid of any and all night/weekend work, but do want it to be the exception rather than the rule - I think I'd be OK with, say, 1800 billables/year as a max. Genuinely appreciate a continued reality check if you think that also sounds impossible.

I disagree with this assessment. I don’t think 9-5 in house is unrealistic at all honestly.

Edit: accidental anon. This is existentialcrisis

Agree, been in-house for a few years and not strictly 9-5, but pretty close. OP, I wouldn't switch to lit cause that will make in-house harder. Also, agree don't go to a small firm cause comp will be significantly worse, but hours may not be much better. If you can't leave NYC, as others have said, look to lateral down, but talk to ppl you know to make sure lifestyle is actually better than V5 cause it will be very firm dependent.

[Anonymous User]

OP again. Thanks, all. Seems like consensus is to lateral to a more mid-Vault-tier firm in corporate and gut it out for another 18 months or so before jumping in house.

One additional question -- should I be looking to get out of M&A if I want a better lifestyle? I imagine it might be hard to switch practice areas yet again, and might be a take what I can get type of move given the current state of economy and junior corporate lateral hiring, but to the extent I could change practice areas within corporate, do we think it would be worth it (and what area would be best to switch into for better lifestyle)?

[attorney589753]

Agree, been in-house for a few years and not strictly 9-5, but pretty close. OP, I wouldn't switch to lit cause that will make in-house harder. Also, agree don't go to a small firm cause comp will be significantly worse, but hours may not be much better. If you can't leave NYC, as others have said, look to lateral down, but talk to ppl you know to make sure lifestyle is actually better than V5 cause it will be very firm dependent.

I agree with this one, switching to lit will reduce future options, so I think that should be a last resort. The obvious initial step is to try a V20-80 in NYC, agree that it's crucial to find the right one. In terms of practice groups, I think the ideal would be a place that might have a mix of M&A and other corporate work. At the same time as a 2020 grad, I don't know about a full reboot into something like fund formation is really viable at this point. Zero significant other time is on the far end of the spectrum so I'm sure you can find a better fit.

[Anonymous User]

I think the main issue is that you're at a V5. Certain companies and firms have reputations. Go to a less prestigious one, and it will still be busy at times, but not as soulcrushing. If possible, also go to a market which is less intense (so not NY). But I've also heard of certain firms for example in NY (A&O) that have very easy lives.

Is there a catch with this? I've heard this too about these firms (A&O, CC in NYC). Are your exit options trash?

[existentialcrisis]

Agree, been in-house for a few years and not strictly 9-5, but pretty close. OP, I wouldn't switch to lit cause that will make in-house harder. Also, agree don't go to a small firm cause comp will be significantly worse, but hours may not be much better. If you can't leave NYC, as others have said, look to lateral down, but talk to ppl you know to make sure lifestyle is actually better than V5 cause it will be very firm dependent.

I agree with this one, switching to lit will reduce future options, so I think that should be a last resort. The obvious initial step is to try a V20-80 in NYC, agree that it's crucial to find the right one. In terms of practice groups, I think the ideal would be a place that might have a mix of M&A and other corporate work. At the same time as a 2020 grad, I don't know about a full reboot into something like fund formation is really viable at this point. Zero significant other time is on the far end of the spectrum so I'm sure you can find a better fit.

I would stick to M&A because it's generally a good practice for going in house (which is the key to improving your lifestyle) anyways and also I don't think switching groups will be that helpful if you're only going to do it for another 18 months or so.

[Bramwell]

Before concluding you’re not cut out for it, when was the last time you took a 10 day vacation and requested coverage so you could disconnect? This should be doable at your seniority level. Good luck.

[nealric]

OP here. Thanks to the posters above.

As far as financial needs, I have a bunch of law school debt - but the last few months have been so taxing on my mental health it's been difficult to put servicing the debt above my well-being. So since I've decided the money isn't worth the pain I have been at least considering government roles so I could potentially leverage loan forgiveness.

Any thoughts on what type of government role would be open to a 2020 grad with a mix of lit and corp experience? Admit that I'm not super familiar with the opportunities available, so greatly appreciate any insight.

And noted on the idea on lateralling to a non-elite M&A group - are there any particular places (or range of firms) in mind where the workload would be more tolerable? Or should I expect it to continue to suck post-lateraling, and just enjoy the ramp up and then try to gut it out for another year or two until I'm more primed for in-house?

Thanks again, all.

Hard to recommend specific places because it can be very personality dependent, but I think on average you'll find that just about anywhere in the v20-80 range is more chill than your current place. Doesn't mean 9-5 by any stretch, but likely at least some degree more sane.

One recommendation I have is to try your best to network and learn the personalities rather than just calling a recruiter and saying "place me." Recruiters only care if they get their commission, not if you are happy. In fact, if you are unhappy that's an opportunity to place you again and get another commission.

I'd start with people you know from law school. Connect with them, ask how it's going, whether they have a life at their current place, what they've heard about various shops, etc.

Thanks again for the thoughts. An additional question if you don't mind -- should I consider at all going back to litigation and maybe looking for a boutique that can offer a good lifestyle? Or switching practice areas again to something other than M&A?

I had moved to corp primarily because I wanted to go in-house, and wanted to go in-house primarily for the work-life balance, but if I can get work-life balance at a smaller firm doing litigation then I'd be open to that path as well. (Know of course that you can't decide for me whether I should switch practice areas, but if you have any insight on whether I could find a litigation firm where the lifestyle is more manageable I'd be grateful).

Others have addressed this, but I don't think it makes sense to switch to litigation unless you really want to be a litigator because you want to do that work. It is more difficult (though not impossible) to get in-house as a litigator, and you'd need to put in more years in private practice before you'd be a viable candidate.

Smaller firms still have to put up with the fundamental demands of litigation. Litigation may have slightly more predictable demands, but you are still going to have surprises and tight deadlines. Plus, small firms that still do high quality work (you really don't want to go to a personal injury settlement mill or do similarly low-quality/low-paid work) are not easy gigs to get- especially ones that have a reputation for lifestyle. Those who are viable lateral candidates usually have some very good experience under their belts. The quality boutiques either want people with rockstar academic credentials as junior, or want people who can hit the ground running and run cases themselves as a lateral. A corporate associate wanting out is unlikely to be a great candidate.

In terms of my experience- I've been in-house for a decade after a relatively short 3-year stint in biglaw. My spouse has been in biglaw lit for close to a decade, so I've seen both sides of that coin. A good in-house gig is the closest thing you are going to get to a 9-5 as an attorney other than perhaps certain government jobs.