Are there published studies about disparities in TTT vs T14? Forum

[Pokarface]

I'm writing a short statistics paper for extra credit in my class. I thought about writing how much ones life would suck if they ended up going to a TTT, TTTT school instead of a T14 (or simply looking for a job with their undergrad degree). I would like to know COA, mean starting salary, accumulated interest on their loans, etc. I hope I can motivate students in my class considering law school to aim for T14, top regional(s), or go home.

I've been looking for data on law school transparency and the infamous US news report. Has anything professional been published analyzing this issue?

[Pokarface]

bump, nvm. i found what i needed

--LinkRemoved--

[laxbrah420]

please share when you're done.

[flcath]

Your classmates are going to think you are exceptionally douchey.

[laxbrah420]

Your classmates are going to think you are exceptionally douchey.

doubt it --that's what's cool about statistics

[Pokarface]

Your classmates are going to think you are exceptionally douchey.

It would probably by an interesting subject for a minute, but after that it would just be, "meh, cool story." No one is considering law school in my stats class. I know it cause I study on the weekends for the LSAT with the frat peeps =-)

[flcath]

Your classmates are going to think you are exceptionally douchey.

It would probably by an interesting subject for a minute, but after that it would just be, "meh, cool story." No one is considering law school in my stats class. I know it cause I study on the weekends for the LSAT with the frat peeps =-)

They'll probably find it interesting then. I wanted to be a doctor all through UG (it was only when I failed at that that I turned to law), and I had no idea how worthless a JD from a bad/average school was. I think most people don't.

Pre-law dudes would get pissed and hate you, though.

[marlborofillet]

It seems like you're interested primarily in $$$, which is understandable. Still, this paper might be worth skimming.

[wjs98]

It seems like you're interested primarily in $$$, which is understandable. Still, this paper might be worth skimming.

I wish that more people debating LSAT/GPA's ability to predict 1L grades read that particular paper, if for nothing else than the following statement:

"A relatively recent analysis (2001-2003 data) shows that the combination of LSAT and UGPA correlates approximately .47 with FYGPA in law school (Dalessandro et al., 2005), which explains approximately 22% of the variance, leaving 78% unexplained."

Everyone mentions the correlation, no one follows through to understand what that means -- 78% of the variance remaining unexplained means they're both terrible predictors.

[flcath]

It seems like you're interested primarily in $$$, which is understandable. Still, this paper might be worth skimming.

I wish that more people debating LSAT/GPA's ability to predict 1L grades read that particular paper, if for nothing else than the following statement:

"A relatively recent analysis (2001-2003 data) shows that the combination of LSAT and UGPA correlates approximately .47 with FYGPA in law school (Dalessandro et al., 2005), which explains approximately 22% of the variance, leaving 78% unexplained."

Everyone mentions the correlation, no one follows through to understand what that means -- 78% of the variance remaining unexplained means they're both terrible predictors.

IIRC, significantly better than the MCAT for med school, the GRE for grad schoo, and the SAT for UG, though.

Gotta use something.

[Pokarface]

It seems like you're interested primarily in $$$, which is understandable. Still, this paper might be worth skimming.

Thanks for the link. It is silly for me to consider the quote, "money doesn't buy happiness", But I have to look at the numbers to show that [lack] of money can cause misery if ones expectations of going to law school is being a high roller. Although if one pursues governmental, environmental, or other non-big-law positions, considering law school at the TTT/TTTT's might still be a bad idea. There are a lot of issues i could consider, but I think the one that has a great impact on your success is the cursed USNR list, lol.

I decided to include the USNR top 100 as t1 and t2 to expand my list of good law schools

edit: I included in my TTT and TTTT list law schools that are not in the top 100 USNR, have published data on law school transparency and/or USNR, and have LSAT acceptance scores available on TLS(hey, this website is a reputable source!). http://www.top-law-schools.com/third-fourth-tier.html

[Pokarface]

I'm trying to draw a sample for my tier 1 group. Using 1-50 (#50 Pepperdine), on random.org I got 5:

American U (DC)
New York U
Columbia U (NY)
Stanford U (CA)
Vanderbilt U (TN)

Should I keep randomizing or would anyone volunteer a list of 5 schools.
I feel it's odd to mix T14 with T50, but life isn't fair anyways =-s

[Nova]

American is an anomaly that has worse employment stats than several T2/3s, so throw them out.

Edit: Ill throw 5 out there that are probably representative: Columbia, Texas, Boston, North Carolina, and Florida. Thats one T10/20/30/40/50

[thesealocust]

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

[Pokarface]

American is an anomaly that has worse employment stats than several T2/3s, so throw them out.

Thanks! I'm laughing at myself right now because I'm taking this a bit seriously even though it is just an assignment for extra credit

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

Woah, thanks! It's very colorful.

[mr.hands]

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

2005 data? Really???

[marlborofillet]

Thanks for the link. It is silly for me to consider the quote, "money doesn't buy happiness", But I have to look at the numbers to show that [lack] of money can cause misery if ones expectations of going to law school is being a high roller.

I'm glad to help; I'd be pleased to see your work when it's done.

I think it's admirable to gently rid folks of misplaced expectations (re: high-rolling). At the same time, your work would be just as commendable if you purged some of their assumptions about how great life is once they make a big-law salary, though statistics might not be the most convincing method. Horror stories sometimes work.

[thesealocust]

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

2005 data? Really???

It's the most robust data that was ever published. A bit out of date, but the relative strengths of the schools hasn't changed for the most part. It paints the important picture: T14 + a few have great prospects, lower ranked schools have substantially worse prospects.

[mr.hands]

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

2005 data? Really???

It's the most robust data that was ever published. A bit out of date, but the relative strengths of the schools hasn't changed for the most part. It paints the important picture: T14 + a few have great prospects, lower ranked schools have substantially worse prospects.

Pre-recession data lacks the precision necessary for a statistics project, though

[jenesaislaw]

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

2005 data? Really???

It's the most robust data that was ever published. A bit out of date, but the relative strengths of the schools hasn't changed for the most part. It paints the important picture: T14 + a few have great prospects, lower ranked schools have substantially worse prospects.

Pre-recession data lacks the precision necessary for a statistics project, though

Besides this salient point, it's not even close to true that it's the most robust data ever published. Like, not even close.

As for some papers on the topic, I have two that are relevant:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2106814 (we're going to release the product described here within a week or two) (discusses U.S. News as an unreliable/awful predictor of employment outcomes)
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1528862 (rundown of what makes employment data put out by schools mislead -- less applicable with the pressure we've exacted on schools, but still helps understand lots of stuff that's still floating around; also details the new standards adopted by the ABA)

Also check out Schlunk's paper on the ROI for law school (almost nobody should go, he says). http://ssrn.com/abstract=1957139

As for cost of the attendance data: --LinkRemoved--

[J-e-L-L-o]

Well if you are picking schools you have to remember how much regional clout they have. National vs regional schools should be represented by a different matrix.

[thesealocust]

it's not even close to true that it's the most robust data ever published. Like, not even close.

Woah, I hadn't been following LST and didn't realize how much data y'all had put together/published. Well done!

[marlborofillet]

This NALP Monograph is from 2007, so I don't know how relevant it is. Still these two quotes from the major findings section stood out:

1) 'At the same time, the most striking finding is that, among AJD respondents, average debt levels were fairly constant across employment settings, meaning that, on average, lawyers earning high salaries in the largest private law firms and lawyers earning considerably less in public government, public interest, and not-for-profit settings owed similar amounts.'

2) 'The end result is that some groups more than others are burdened with a less favorable earnings-to-debt ratio upon leaving law school. These include black and Hispanic lawyers, graduates of public and lower-ranked law schools; and those working in the least remunerative positions.'

I've not read the full piece, but this - from page 9 - seemed especially pertinent to OP's project:

'Table 2-B shows that there was a relationship — a marginally significant one — between
the existence of debt, whatever the amount, and the ranking of the law school the respondent attended. Twenty percent of respondents from “top 10" law schools reported no debt and 17% of those from law schools ranked between 11th and 25th reported no debt, compared with 15% of those from the remainder of law schools, those ranked from 26th to the lowest (in this case, 178th because that was the number of law schools represented by respondents). There was virtually no difference in the incidence of debt among respondents from the schools ranked 26th and lower.'

[jeffyl00b]

I'm writing a short statistics paper for extra credit in my class. I thought about writing how much ones life would suck if they ended up going to a TTT, TTTT school instead of a T14 (or simply looking for a job with their undergrad degree). I would like to know COA, mean starting salary, accumulated interest on their loans, etc. I hope I can motivate students in my class considering law school to aim for T14, top regional(s), or go home.

I've been looking for data on law school transparency and the infamous US news report. Has anything professional been published analyzing this issue?

You want to write a statistics paper for how much life sucks if they go to a TTT, TTTT or just get a BA/BS degree versus going to a T14.
After you are done, you want to MOTIVATE students that if they can't go to a T14, they should go home, where life sucks just as much as TTT,TTTT. Give up, maybe commit suicide?

I wish I didn't have to work so many jobs, I can't figure out why I wouldn't get a 180 on this thing!

[shifty_eyed]

I've not read the full piece, but this - from page 9 - seemed especially pertinent to OP's project:

'Table 2-B shows that there was a relationship — a marginally significant one — between
the existence of debt, whatever the amount, and the ranking of the law school the respondent attended. Twenty percent of respondents from “top 10" law schools reported no debt and 17% of those from law schools ranked between 11th and 25th reported no debt, compared with 15% of those from the remainder of law schools, those ranked from 26th to the lowest (in this case, 178th because that was the number of law schools represented by respondents). There was virtually no difference in the incidence of debt among respondents from the schools ranked 26th and lower.'

How much of this disparity can be explained by the fact that students at top 25 schools tend to come from wealthier families?