Is Sullivan & Cromwell really that bad? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am strongly considering taking an S&C offer and I have read about its awful work/life balance and treatment of associates.

I am weighing S&C against a top LA firm and Skadden for Corporate. I am trying to figure out what I am getting myself into with SullCrom. Does the great TLS have any sense of whether it is comparable to peer firms in terms of the environment or is it significantly worse?

Thanks!

[zugzwanger]

Couldn't the same be said about Skadden as S&C?

[goden]

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the XOXO board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the XOXO crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

[goden]

But really it's prob not worse than skadden

[Anonymous User]

I worked there as a paralegal for 2 years before law school and loved it. The associates I knew were generally happy and all encouraged me to go to law school. There are some negatives for sure but all big law firms have those negatives and S&C was better than a lot of places where my friends were paralegals.

[chuckbass]

do they still give out bonsais?

[Anonymous User]

I very very surprised that the paralegal Anon above worked at S&C. That's all I have to say...

[Anonymous User]

0 of my friends in biglaw are "happy" - but by far the least happy are (or were...) at S&C. I was at another top NYC firm and the horror stories from my S&C friends tended to involve similar amounts of work and insanity but way more aggression/yelling/negativity. It's got a reputation for harshness and it seems that reputation has plenty of support.

If you're weighing options, I'd say the right question to ask is: why S&C instead of the others? If you don't have an answer other than prestige or selectivity, well, I've seen this movie before and it never ends well.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

In my opinion S&C is no worse of a work environment than any other big law firm.

[jbagelboy]

I'd certainly take S&C over Skadden, but if the "top" LA firm is Gibson Dunn (or better yet Munger Tolles) you'll be much, much happier there than either of the NY offices.

[legends159]

Yes it is. Toxic culture. Would definitely avoid if you have other options.

[Cogburn87]

I worked there as a paralegal for 2 years before law school and loved it. The associates I knew were generally happy and all encouraged me to go to law school. There are some negatives for sure but all big law firms have those negatives and S&C was better than a lot of places where my friends were paralegals.

This seems like an unnecessary and mean-spirited flame to be running.

[codeandcodes]

It really depends on what you are going for. Sullivan & Cromwell does have a lot of name cachet in the legal community. It's old, stuffy, but their work quality is top-notch. S&C's PPP are really high. They rarely hire laterals, and even more rarely will laterals come in as partner. As an associate looking outwards at in-house, I would very seriously consider the very real differences in terms of work-life balance between S&C and another firm, given that your advantage in applying for in-house gigs is minimal to non-existent.

Source: I got a bonsai tree.

[Anonymous User]

S&C and Skadden are pretty different firms in terms of personality anyways so that should be a decisive factor in weighing your options. I do have experience with a firm in CA and I'd recommend splitting with the LA firm if you can because you will see a bigger difference there than among NYC firms themselves.

[Anonymous User]

In terms of quality of life, S&C is no worse than Cravath, Skadden, etc. There are great reasons to choose S&C (even over places like MTO), though you will work very hard at S&C.

[Anonymous User]

As an S&C associate, this is what I can tell you--it sucks.

That being said, all my complaints are endemic to big law as a whole and not particularly specific to S&C. Billables are not any more awful than other firms. Face time requirements vary, but in general, because the firm is very large and institutionalized, no one is even going to notice if you're not there (unless you're not there when something is going on).

Experiences are going to vary by group as well. For instance, the M&A group has some very extreme personalities and is a much different environment than other groups. On the other hand, the ECB (exec comp) group is pretty relaxed and does a decent job protecting its associates.

But in all honesty, the biggest thing is managing the personalities around you, and I think this is true of everywhere you work. I found that I get along well with a large number of associates in my class year (each new class year is huge, so you're going to have a wide range of people), and I think everyone will be able to find a group of people they mesh well with. That being said, you can't really pick the people you work with, and as with all large companies, some people just suck.

I think the ultimate answer is, your mileage will vary no matter where you end up.

[Anonymous User]

People have been having this conversation on online message boards since at least 2006. S&C has a toxic culture and it'll never go away. With that being said, you're likely to run into the same problems at most top tier NYC shops (esp. the elite public M&A groups, for example).

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648

[Anonymous User]

While it's true that it all depends who you work with, if you choose a firm that's known for acting in a certain way, then you are more likely to get a senior that's known for acting that certain way.

I had CB interviewers pick apart my resume and disparage bad grades in front of me (not as good of a grade in property = "I guess you're not going into real estate"), show up in a t shirt and shorts to my interview because they "forgot," and tell me that they don't pitch to clients--they just say "we're Sullivan & Cromwell" and the clients come to them. The hiring partner asked what other firms I had callbacks at, and then straight up told me that only one or two of the ten v15 firms I was considering was "even close" to S&C. He then asked me to accept or decline within 24 hours (against NALP rules).

IMO if you can make it through a callback without rolling your eyes and feeling a bit uneasy at stuff like that, then maybe S&C is for you.

[First Offense]

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the XOXO board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the XOXO crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

Lame copypasta.

[Old Gregg]

people here who are saying S&C is bad but no worse than other biglaw firms are deluding themselves. biglaw as a whole sucks, but there are definitely firms that suck less to work at than others. firms like S&C are at the worse end of the spectrum.

that said, not a bad place to do 3 or so years and then move on to a firm where u can get more recognition more easily.

[Anonymous User]

A friend of mine worked there for a few years out of law school. He said it was absolute hell, but that he doesn't regret going there. He said that the resume line set him off on the highest trajectory imaginable, and that he had his pick of jobs when he wanted to lateral. He said that the environment is just overboard, that there is no semblance of balance, and that no one even really bothers to hide or downplay just how crazy the work culture is there. But at the same time, he said everything is absolute gold standard. Every perk is the best of the best, and that the firm puts LOTS of money into the small creature comforts to make the experience a bit more palatable. So in the end, he said it was pretty awful, but that he wouldn't necessarily discourage graduating students from going there straight out of school.

[Anonymous User]

A friend of mine worked there for a few years out of law school. He said it was absolute hell, but that he doesn't regret going there. He said that the resume line set him off on the highest trajectory imaginable, and that he had his pick of jobs when he wanted to lateral. He said that the environment is just overboard, that there is no semblance of balance, and that no one even really bothers to hide or downplay just how crazy the work culture is there. But at the same time, he said everything is absolute gold standard. Every perk is the best of the best, and that the firm puts LOTS of money into the small creature comforts to make the experience a bit more palatable. So in the end, he said it was pretty awful, but that he wouldn't necessarily discourage graduating students from going there straight out of school.

the signaling/exits are the same at peer firms (DPW, CSM, STB), and while those places all have their own flaws and you'll work basically just as much, none of them have the same universal consensus of hellishness and toxicity as people associate with SullCrom. So almost anyone with an S&C offer has alternatives from firms providing equal quality of work/prestige/options but that also offer "some semblance of balance." There are reasons to go to S&C over those other three or four firms for certain practices, but saying "it provides good exits and its prestigious" as a justification doesn't carry much weight comparatively.

Here, the choice is even easier: there's an option in a better market at a more coveted firm that provides superior QOL and early experience to juniors.

[Anonymous User]

A friend of mine worked there for a few years out of law school. He said it was absolute hell, but that he doesn't regret going there. He said that the resume line set him off on the highest trajectory imaginable, and that he had his pick of jobs when he wanted to lateral. He said that the environment is just overboard, that there is no semblance of balance, and that no one even really bothers to hide or downplay just how crazy the work culture is there. But at the same time, he said everything is absolute gold standard. Every perk is the best of the best, and that the firm puts LOTS of money into the small creature comforts to make the experience a bit more palatable. So in the end, he said it was pretty awful, but that he wouldn't necessarily discourage graduating students from going there straight out of school.

the signaling/exits are the same at peer firms (DPW, CSM, STB), and while those places all have their own flaws and you'll work basically just as much, none of them have the same universal consensus of hellishness and toxicity as people associate with SullCrom. So almost anyone with an S&C offer has alternatives from firms providing equal quality of work/prestige/options but that also offer "some semblance of balance." There are reasons to go to S&C over those other three or four firms for certain practices, but saying "it provides good exits and its prestigious" as a justification doesn't carry much weight comparatively.

Here, the choice is even easier: there's an option in a better market at a more coveted firm that provides superior QOL and early experience to juniors.

Can you elaborate on this? I get CSM is a pretty seperate structure with its rotation practice. But what really makes S&C that much worse than DPW or STB?

Is it just the people at S&C, or is it something else?

[Anonymous User]

People have been having this conversation on online message boards since at least 2006. S&C has a toxic culture and it'll never go away. With that being said, you're likely to run into the same problems at most top tier NYC shops (esp. the elite public M&A groups, for example).

Just out of curiosity, on a general level why is (public) M&A particularly bad compared to others like capital markets? Is it the nature of work? Are the top M&A groups all similar in culture? I'm interested in doing corporate in NYC and wasn't sure what to think.

[Anonymous User]

People have been having this conversation on online message boards since at least 2006. S&C has a toxic culture and it'll never go away. With that being said, you're likely to run into the same problems at most top tier NYC shops (esp. the elite public M&A groups, for example).

Just out of curiosity, on a general level why is (public) M&A particularly bad compared to others like capital markets? Is it the nature of work? Are the top M&A groups all similar in culture? I'm interested in doing corporate in NYC and wasn't sure what to think.

http://nymag.com/news/features/28515/