UC Hastings vs. SCU Law Forum

[mkelly]

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to get some advice on what law school to go to... I have been accepted to several schools and still waiting on more results to come back. However, I want to stay in the bay area and work in IP law after graduation.

My top two choices as of now are UC Hastings and Santa Clara Law (mostly bc of IP and lower debt).

I have gotten 15k/ yr at scu and not sure what at Hastings yet but im assuming it'll be much lower if anything. (Not counting financial aid)

If I went to SCU I would live at home to save money. I finished my undergrad from there and I love the school.

My major concerns are debt and ability to get a job after graduation.

My ideal places to work after graduation would be mid-sized firms such as Fenwick and West, Wilson Sonsini and other such IP firms.

Any advice would be appreciated!
Thanks!

[Ti Malice]

=
My major concerns are debt and ability to get a job after graduation.

Your concerns are well-founded. Both of these schools have horrible employment outcomes. Hastings at sticker would be flirting with financial suicide. Santa Clara's scholarship probably has stips, and anything less than a full ride/no-stips scholarship is too much for SCU.

Retaking is the only sensible path to take here.

[jump_man]

According to SCU's most recent employment stats on their website, only 24 out of 306 graduates from the class of 2010 were employed by firms with 100+ attorneys (link to source).

Hastings, on the other hand, had 47 out of 411 graduates from the class of 2011 employed in firms with 100+ attorneys (keep in mind that this year's 1L class is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller, with ~310 students; here is a link to Hastings' employment stats). Anecdotally, I can tell you that Hastings has a much better reputation in San Francisco, and I believe Hastings has a better reputation in Silicon Valley.

Long story short, the numbers indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of landing big law from Hastings, but both these schools are risky without $$$.

[Tiago Splitter]

According to SCU's most recent employment stats on their website, only 24 out of 306 graduates from the class of 2010 were employed by firms with 100+ attorneys (link to source).

Hastings, on the other hand, had 47 out of 411 graduates from the class of 2011 employed in firms with 100+ attorneys

the numbers indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of landing big law from Hastings

Those numbers don't indicate that at all.

OP if your goal is to work at a firm started by someone other than you, you need to retake the LSAT.

[andy261]

According to SCU's most recent employment stats on their website, only 24 out of 306 graduates from the class of 2010 were employed by firms with 100+ attorneys (link to source).

Hastings, on the other hand, had 47 out of 411 graduates from the class of 2011 employed in firms with 100+ attorneys

the numbers indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of landing big law from Hastings

Those numbers don't indicate that at all.

OP if your goal is to work at a firm started by someone other than you, you need to retake the LSAT.

As someone who went to school in the Bay Area and is currently working at a law firm in SF, I would have to agree with jumpman at least for SF. What many of us younger folks don't realize is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, Hastings was a top 20 law school. Therefore it enjoys somewhat of a prestige above its current ranking since not every lawyer keeps track of exact rankings once they're practicing. If you look at biographies of lawyers for big firms in SF, you'll see more Hastings than Santa Clara.

[Ti Malice]

According to SCU's most recent employment stats on their website, only 24 out of 306 graduates from the class of 2010 were employed by firms with 100+ attorneys (link to source).

Hastings, on the other hand, had 47 out of 411 graduates from the class of 2011 employed in firms with 100+ attorneys

the numbers indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of landing big law from Hastings

Those numbers don't indicate that at all.

OP if your goal is to work at a firm started by someone other than you, you need to retake the LSAT.

As someone who went to school in the Bay Area and is currently working at a law firm in SF, I would have to agree with jumpman at least for SF. What many of us younger folks don't realize is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, Hastings was a top 20 law school. Therefore it enjoys somewhat of a prestige above its current ranking since not every lawyer keeps track of exact rankings once they're practicing. If you look at biographies of lawyers for big firms in SF, you'll see more Hastings than Santa Clara.

The reality is that, with so few legal jobs in the Bay Area, Hastings' good reputation is meaningless now. The best of these jobs are largely going to go to SLS and Boalt grads, along with YLS and HLS interlopers.

[andy261]

According to SCU's most recent employment stats on their website, only 24 out of 306 graduates from the class of 2010 were employed by firms with 100+ attorneys (link to source).

Hastings, on the other hand, had 47 out of 411 graduates from the class of 2011 employed in firms with 100+ attorneys

the numbers indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of landing big law from Hastings

Those numbers don't indicate that at all.

OP if your goal is to work at a firm started by someone other than you, you need to retake the LSAT.

As someone who went to school in the Bay Area and is currently working at a law firm in SF, I would have to agree with jumpman at least for SF. What many of us younger folks don't realize is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, Hastings was a top 20 law school. Therefore it enjoys somewhat of a prestige above its current ranking since not every lawyer keeps track of exact rankings once they're practicing. If you look at biographies of lawyers for big firms in SF, you'll see more Hastings than Santa Clara.

The reality is that, with so few legal jobs in the Bay Area, Hastings' good reputation is meaningless now. The best of these jobs are largely going to go to SLS and Boalt grads, along with YLS and HLS interlopers.

The OP was asking for a comparison between Hastings and SC. Also, while the very top jobs do probably go to SLS, Boalt, and YLS/HLS grads, you will still find Hastings grads among the recent associates for many of the big firms in SF. Since I'm considering working in SF after law school, I looked through the attorney directories listed on the websites of all the big firms here and where they got their degrees from.

[timbs4339]

What IP credentials do you have? Advanced degrees?

[Tiago Splitter]

According to SCU's most recent employment stats on their website, only 24 out of 306 graduates from the class of 2010 were employed by firms with 100+ attorneys (link to source).

Hastings, on the other hand, had 47 out of 411 graduates from the class of 2011 employed in firms with 100+ attorneys

the numbers indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of landing big law from Hastings

Those numbers don't indicate that at all.

OP if your goal is to work at a firm started by someone other than you, you need to retake the LSAT.

As someone who went to school in the Bay Area and is currently working at a law firm in SF, I would have to agree with jumpman at least for SF. What many of us younger folks don't realize is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, Hastings was a top 20 law school. Therefore it enjoys somewhat of a prestige above its current ranking since not every lawyer keeps track of exact rankings once they're practicing. If you look at biographies of lawyers for big firms in SF, you'll see more Hastings than Santa Clara.

He said the numbers prove that Hastings had much better biglaw placement while posting numbers that show this isn't the case in any meaningful sense.

[Yukos]

Those numbers don't indicate that at all.

OP if your goal is to work at a firm started by someone other than you, you need to retake the LSAT.

As someone who went to school in the Bay Area and is currently working at a law firm in SF, I would have to agree with jumpman at least for SF. What many of us younger folks don't realize is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, Hastings was a top 20 law school. Therefore it enjoys somewhat of a prestige above its current ranking since not every lawyer keeps track of exact rankings once they're practicing. If you look at biographies of lawyers for big firms in SF, you'll see more Hastings than Santa Clara.

The reality is that, with so few legal jobs in the Bay Area, Hastings' good reputation is meaningless now. The best of these jobs are largely going to go to SLS and Boalt grads, along with YLS and HLS interlopers.

The OP was asking for a comparison between Hastings and SC.

He forgot option C: retake or don't go.

If OP is patent-bar eligible, the SCU scholly has no stips and he can live at home, that might not be the worst decision, but it's still much riskier than I'd be comfortable with.

[Ti Malice]

The OP was asking for a comparison between Hastings and SC. Also, while the very top jobs do probably go to SLS, Boalt, and YLS/HLS grads, you will still find Hastings grads among the recent associates for many of the big firms in SF. Since I'm considering working in SF after law school, I looked through the attorney directories listed on the websites of all the big firms here and where they got their degrees from.

I understand that he/she was asking for a comparison. I just wanted to contextualize your comments about Hastings' lingering prestige in SF, lest OP start to imagine that the picture were rosier than reality.

And I'm sure the top 5-10% at Hastings still do quite well in SF. However, the average outcome for Hastings grads is abysmal.

[Plastir]

The employment situation for UC Hastings is strictly the result of location: UCH is located in the most competitive legal market in the country. The Financial District, where many lawyers from other states seek to work, is close to saturated. Graduates willing to work elsewhere, including overseas, are able to find jobs.

Notwithstanding this, UC Hastings has a strong national and international reputation, and offers excellent legal education, especially in cutting edge areas of the law, including IP, bio-life, and work-life law. There are 9 law journals, including "Science and Technology") and 18 clinics. They have great IP professors, an IP clinical program, and good relations with IP firms. Two years ago, UCH held an IP employment conference, and nearly thirty law firms showed up to meet and interview UCH students.

UCH graduates are known to be well trained and actually ready to practice law. This school has more California Judges and more California SuperLawyers among its alums than any other law school in the nation.

If you are looking for a bucolic setting in suburbia to study legal theory, consider Santa Clara. You will get a good legal education there. If you don't mind an urban campus (albeit located in the most beautiful city in the country), seek to acquire top notch, real world legal training from some of the best lawyers in the country, UCH may work for you.

[Rahviveh]

The employment situation for UC Hastings is strictly the result of location: UCH is located in the most competitive legal market in the country. The Financial District, where many lawyers from other states seek to work, is close to saturated. Graduates willing to work elsewhere, including overseas, are able to find jobs.

Notwithstanding this, UC Hastings has a strong national and international reputation, and offers excellent legal education, especially in cutting edge areas of the law, including IP, bio-life, and work-life law. There are 9 law journals, including "Science and Technology") and 18 clinics. They have great IP professors, an IP clinical program, and good relations with IP firms. Two years ago, UCH held an IP employment conference, and nearly thirty law firms showed up to meet and interview UCH students.

UCH graduates are known to be well trained and actually ready to practice law. This school has more California Judges and more California SuperLawyers among its alums than any other law school in the nation.

If you are looking for a bucolic setting in suburbia to study legal theory, consider Santa Clara. You will get a good legal education there. If you don't mind an urban campus (albeit located in the most beautiful city in the country), seek to acquire top notch, real world legal training from some of the best lawyers in the country, UCH may work for you.

OP ignore this post. This person clearly works for Hastings

[timbs4339]

The employment situation for UC Hastings is strictly the result of location: UCH is located in the most competitive legal market in the country. The Financial District, where many lawyers from other states seek to work, is close to saturated. Graduates willing to work elsewhere, including overseas, are able to find jobs.

Notwithstanding this, UC Hastings has a strong national and international reputation, and offers excellent legal education, especially in cutting edge areas of the law, including IP, bio-life, and work-life law. There are 9 law journals, including "Science and Technology") and 18 clinics. They have great IP professors, an IP clinical program, and good relations with IP firms. Two years ago, UCH held an IP employment conference, and nearly thirty law firms showed up to meet and interview UCH students.

UCH graduates are known to be well trained and actually ready to practice law. This school has more California Judges and more California SuperLawyers among its alums than any other law school in the nation.

If you are looking for a bucolic setting in suburbia to study legal theory, consider Santa Clara. You will get a good legal education there. If you don't mind an urban campus (albeit located in the most beautiful city in the country), seek to acquire top notch, real world legal training from some of the best lawyers in the country, UCH may work for you.

LOL really?

If UCH had such strong programs, then their graduates who did not have PhDs in the hard sciences would be getting jobs in those fields. If having nine journals and 18 clinics meant anything to employers, then UCH would not have 55% of its class not in FT/LT lawyer jobs. I find it hard to believe that UCH grads would rather be homeless in the "Financial District" with 200K debt than take a 100K job overseas or a 160K job in NYC.

The fact that the market is saturated is not a very good reason to go to law school.

If you want to talk about judges, how about returning tuition at UCH to whatever levels it was (indexed to inflation) at the time those 60 year old judges were in law school? Superlawyers is a B.S. designation.

[Jose Reyes]

I'd retake and apply again next cycle.

If you don't want to do that, your best bet would be to take the $$$ at SCU and live at home (minimize debt). Going into IP will boost your employment chances as well!!!

[Rahviveh]

I'd retake and apply again next cycle.

If you don't want to do that, your best bet would be to take the $$$ at SCU and live at home (minimize debt). Going into IP will boost your employment chances as well!!!

Don't SCU schollies always have stips on them

[Mick Haller]

The reality is that, with so few legal jobs in the Bay Area, Hastings' good reputation is meaningless now. The best of these jobs are largely going to go to SLS and Boalt grads, along with YLS and HLS interlopers.

Yeah this.

OP you should retake the LSAT and shoot for Boalt. Or at least UCLA/USC.

Right now, Hastings is putting about 10% of its classes into highly desirable jobs, and that cutoff seems to be pretty strict. I graduated top 15% and many people I know just outside of top 10% got nothing at OCI. FWIW I am working part time now making $20 per hour.

Santa Clara is likely worse. I tried to get a job in San Jose one summer, and some of the small firms were making SCU people work for free AND pay tuition money to get credits. Just so the firms could avoid paying minimum wage. I didn't get the job because Hastings doesn't give credit for working at private law firms. It seemed like a super shady practice, by both SCU and the small firms.

[Ti Malice]

The employment situation for UC Hastings is strictly the result of location: UCH is located in the most competitive legal market in the country. The Financial District, where many lawyers from other states seek to work, is close to saturated. Graduates willing to work elsewhere, including overseas, are able to find jobs.

Notwithstanding this, UC Hastings has a strong national and international reputation, and offers excellent legal education, especially in cutting edge areas of the law, including IP, bio-life, and work-life law. There are 9 law journals, including "Science and Technology") and 18 clinics. They have great IP professors, an IP clinical program, and good relations with IP firms. Two years ago, UCH held an IP employment conference, and nearly thirty law firms showed up to meet and interview UCH students.

UCH graduates are known to be well trained and actually ready to practice law. This school has more California Judges and more California SuperLawyers among its alums than any other law school in the nation.

If you are looking for a bucolic setting in suburbia to study legal theory, consider Santa Clara. You will get a good legal education there. If you don't mind an urban campus (albeit located in the most beautiful city in the country), seek to acquire top notch, real world legal training from some of the best lawyers in the country, UCH may work for you.

Fixed.

[Lasers]

The reality is that, with so few legal jobs in the Bay Area, Hastings' good reputation is meaningless now. The best of these jobs are largely going to go to SLS and Boalt grads, along with YLS and HLS interlopers.

Yeah this.

OP you should retake the LSAT and shoot for Boalt. Or at least UCLA/USC.

Right now, Hastings is putting about 10% of its classes into highly desirable jobs, and that cutoff seems to be pretty strict. I graduated top 15% and many people I know just outside of top 10% got nothing at OCI. FWIW I am working part time now making $20 per hour.

Santa Clara is likely worse. I tried to get a job in San Jose one summer, and some of the small firms were making SCU people work for free AND pay tuition money to get credits. Just so the firms could avoid paying minimum wage. I didn't get the job because Hastings doesn't give credit for working at private law firms. It seemed like a super shady practice, by both SCU and the small firms.

unfortunately this is all true.

outside of the top 10% (and even more so outside the top 15%) at hastings, it's incredibly difficult to land big law. at scu, it seems closer to top 5% to have a shot at big law. note: this is true for non-ip students.

[stillwater]

shitlaw LOOMS from these 2 options