Transfer Data (# In/Out) Last Two Years Forum

[prncaspian3]

Yeah, Harvard definitely seems like a different animal. But traydeuce, I'm at a T40 (5%), so I share your concerns, and have even more reason to worry (I didn't realize just how much movement there was in the T14.) My issue is that chronic illness during college brought both my GPA and LSAT way down; I did talk about in my PS, but it would be a shame to not be considered on equal terms with the other transfer applicants because I'm at a T40 versus T20 or T14 school, for that matter. Under normal circumstances, after all, I would have been at a higher ranked school to begin with.

[traydeuce]

Yeah, Harvard definitely seems like a different animal. But traydeuce, I'm at a T40 (5%), so I share your concerns, and have even more reason to worry (I didn't realize just how much movement there was in the T14.) My issue is that chronic illness during college brought both my GPA and LSAT way down; I did talk about in my PS, but it would be a shame to not be considered on equal terms with the other transfer applicants because I'm at a T40 versus T20 or T14 school, for that matter. Under normal circumstances, after all, I would have been at a higher ranked school to begin with.

In my case, a bout of freshman year depression/not caring the other three years brought my GPA down; without my above-median-at-Harvard LSAT I'd be lost. That said, if schools had been like, "aww, you were depressed/chronically sick" in the first place, we'd be at T14s in the first place. But clearly schools do not take those sorts of explanations into heavy consideration. So I'm not sure why would that change now. Only because now the numbers don't count towards their rankings. Besides, isn't it reasonable for Harvard to look at you or me and discount our grades because of where we went? The competition at a t14-20 would've been a lot tougher; who's to say where we would have stacked up? They know how the Georgetown applicant stacks up at the t14 school, and the top of that class isn't a whole lot less talented than the top of Harvard's.

[98234872348]

Columbia 62 0 79 7
NYU 50 1 37 3

how much do you want to bet that NYU accepted the exact same number of people in 2008 and 2009 and more people accepted CLS's offer than NYU's.

Great post, though, thanks!

[prncaspian3]

But clearly schools do not take those sorts of explanations into heavy consideration. So I'm not sure why would that change now. Only because now the numbers don't count towards their rankings.

But also because we've completed 1L year, and proven ourselves. In my case, both LSAT/cumulative GPA (and in your case, your GPA) were not reliable predictors of law school performance. As a result, such explanations are quite plausible in retrospect--as opposed to before, when the schools had no reliable basis on which to accept us the first time around.

Besides, isn't it reasonable for Harvard to look at you or me and discount our grades because of where we went? The competition at a t14-20 would've been a lot tougher; who's to say where we would have stacked up?

I would say it depends, but honestly I think those at the top a T20-50 school would tend to be at the top of their class were they at a T14-20 school, and maybe even a T14 school. At any rate, I would hope that once you're in top 5% at a T1, though, schools like Harvard would be willing to take a serious look at the totality of your app.

[traydeuce]

^^

I'm sure they take a very serious look at our apps, but nevertheless, they get people applying from the top of every school, particularly in the Penn-to-GW range, and, though I certainly think I'd be in the top of GW's class, even Penn's, I would be much quicker to grab those people than me if I were Harvard. There's a big difference between a class where the top quarter got a 172 and up and a school where the top quarter got a 168 and up. How else are they supposed to make these decisions? That's why I did the write-on at Harvard, to hopefully give them some reason to take me over the throngs of other applicants similarly situated to ourselves. And there are throngs. At my school alone there at least three applicants out of the top 5%, and I went to the smallest of law schools. At a larger school there could easily be ten. And if you figure they take about sixty people, and most of those are likely accounted for by the 69 transfers in the Columbia-Georgetown range, chances are they only take one from each t30-40 school, and probably not even that many.

[MrKappus]

^^

I'm sure they take a very serious look at our apps, but nevertheless, they get people applying from the top of every school, particularly in the Penn-to-GW range, and, though I certainly think I'd be in the top of GW's class, even Penn's, I would be much quicker to grab those people than me if I were Harvard. There's a big difference between a class where the top quarter got a 172 and up and a school where the top quarter got a 168 and up. How else are they supposed to make these decisions? That's why I did the write-on at Harvard, to hopefully give them some reason to take me over the throngs of other applicants similarly situated to ourselves. And there are throngs. At my school alone there at least three applicants out of the top 5%, and I went to the smallest of law schools. At a larger school there could easily be ten. And if you figure they take about sixty people, and most of those are likely accounted for by the 69 transfers in the Columbia-Georgetown range, chances are they only take one from each t30-40 school, and probably not even that many.

Top 5% at a T35 has barely any chance at Harvard, regardless of write-on results. You'll have some nice T14 options though, obviously.

[traydeuce]

I think they'd have a tough (though not impossible) time rejecting someone who made a law review that only takes 7% of their own class. Every year people from worse schools, like Florida, Brooklyn, Cardozo, etc. seem to make it, if you believe transferapps anyway.

[MrKappus]

I think they'd have a tough (though not impossible) time rejecting someone who made a law review that only takes 7% of their own class. Every year people from worse schools, like Florida, Brooklyn, Cardozo, etc. seem to make it, if you believe transferapps anyway.

Maybe, but transferapps for '08/'09 doesn't show a single Harvard acceptance for a top 5%/T35 applicant. Also, it's a bit delusional to think you're going to write onto Harvard's LR when at least 12-15 people got better grades than you at your T35. Don't get mad...I'm just sayin'.

[prncaspian3]

MrKappus, I know for a fact that at least 3 students from my T40, in the last two cycles, transferred to Harvard. I recall seeing on transferapps at least a few that got to Harvard--and maybe I was wrong, but I will have to peruse it again. Either way, I don't think transferapps is representative, given the simple fact that most don't use it.

[MrKappus]

MrKappus, I know for a fact that at least 3 students from my T40, in the last two cycles, transferred to Harvard. I recall seeing on transferapps at least a few that got to Harvard--and maybe I was wrong, but I will have to peruse it again. Either way, I don't think transferapps is representative, given the simple fact that most don't use it.

Did you read my post? T40 students totally get into H, as long as they're like top 1-2%. Not 5%. Edit: I also don't think transferapps is representative. In fact, I'd say it self-selects for more diligent/informed transfer applicants (based on the fact they they found the database), so if anything, it probably paints too rosy a picture.

[prncaspian3]

Also...

it's a bit delusional to think you're going to write onto Harvard's LR when at least 12-15 people got better grades than you at your T35. Don't get mad...I'm just sayin'

I'm pretty sure he didn't say he was "going" to write onto HLR, but that he gave it a shot, and it can only boost his chances of admission. It's never delusional to give something like that a shot...

[MrKappus]

Also...

it's a bit delusional to think you're going to write onto Harvard's LR when at least 12-15 people got better grades than you at your T35. Don't get mad...I'm just sayin'

I'm pretty sure he didn't say he was "going" to write onto HLR, but that he gave it a shot, and it can only boost his chances of admission. It's never delusional to give something like that a shot...

So he/she did the write-on competition but didn't think he/she was going to make it? That's weird.

[prncaspian3]

Did you read my post? T40 students totally get into H, as long as they're like top 1-2%.

Unless there was another post way back I didn't see, you didn't say that when you said top 5% from T35 had no shot. Also, a lot of the times top 5%, rather than the exact percentile, is all that's known. In my case, my school doesn't rank and doesn't specify past top 5%--but by my estimate, I am at 2-3%. Shot at H? It's a tough call.

Also, why wouldn't not seeing stats from T30-40 applicants getting into H paint a more grim, rather than rosy, picture about chances?

[MrKappus]

Did you read my post? T40 students totally get into H, as long as they're like top 1-2%.

Unless there was another post way back I didn't see, you didn't say that when you said top 5% from T35 had no shot. Also, a lot of the times top 5%, rather than the exact percentile, is all that's known. In my case, my school doesn't rank and doesn't specify past top 5%--but by my estimate, I am at 2-3%. Shot at H? It's a tough call.

Also, why wouldn't not seeing stats from T30-40 applicants getting into H paint a more grim, rather than rosy, picture about chances?

It is presumed, both on TLS and in the legal hiring community in general, that "top __%" means that's about where you are. Ergo, someone who's top 2% is obviously top 5%. He's also top 95%, as it happens. But he'll say "top 2%" when asked his rank, just as when I said "top 5% at T35," I was clearly referring to people who did better than 95% of their class. No more, no less.

Haha on a side note, if you're school does not rank and does not specify past 5%, how exactly did you estimate 2-3%?

[prncaspian3]

Haha on a side note, if you're school does not rank and does not specify past 5%, how exactly did you estimate 2-3%?

The 5% threshold is set at 3.8, and I have a 3.88.

[traydeuce]

Oh, sorry, I'm about top 3 or 4%. All we have are 5% cutoffs so all one knows for sure is whether one's top 5, top 10, etc. Maybe 2 or 3 people did better than me, not 12 or 15. But it's a tiny class so it would be more at a bigger school.

[MrKappus]

Oh, sorry, I'm about top 3 or 4%. All we have are 5% cutoffs so all one knows for sure is whether one's top 5, top 10, etc. Maybe 2 or 3 people did better than me, not 12 or 15. But it's a tiny class so it would be more at a bigger school.

Sounds like your odds are better than what I first estimated. I still think write-on's a tall order, but that's a statement on H's write-on competition, not you.

[traydeuce]

Oh, sorry, I'm about top 3 or 4%. All we have are 5% cutoffs so all one knows for sure is whether one's top 5, top 10, etc. Maybe 2 or 3 people did better than me, not 12 or 15. But it's a tiny class so it would be more at a bigger school.

Sounds like your odds are better than what I first estimated. I still think write-on's a tall order, but that's a statement on H's write-on competition, not you.

I don't know, I'm a pretty strong writer (not here, obviously, but when I choose to be) and when I look at the sample winners they sent us, and my piece, I don't really see any difference. (Which isn't to say my entry was terrific; the sample winners, as you might imagine from the tiny amount of time you get to work on it, just weren't very good.) If anything mine is probably a little better written, just as a matter of style, and a little more persuasive, but a tad sloppier at points; I probably overstated some arguments where I should have been a little more nuanced. And I really think a lot of people must have struggled with the topic; the case was on such an arcane issue, and the flaws in its reasoning were pretty well-hidden, that I think just to be able to sift through all that material in a week, accurately state the doctrine and pick up on what was a little novel and problematic about this decision will go really far. Also, 40% of the competition is just a subcite, and I'm pretty confident I caught 95% of the errors, at least.