178 LSAT Below Average, International Non URM Forum

[Dolna Ray]

178 Lsat
GPA (Below Average) sadly.
International
Indian (Asian) and not Native American so no URM points sadly
Graduated in 2012. Did a 2 years Masters degree after that where I did better (though that wont matter at all I know). Have about 5 years of experience, recently worked as a journalist.
Those are the stats.
What are my chances? Is there any chance for people like me in law schools ranked 50-100 ?
Are there any International non URM applicant who got in somewhere worth going with stats similar to mine? High Lsat, A/BA degree classification?
Please help.

[crazywafflez]

Your below average will hurt you, but certainly won't tank you. Your grad GPA improvement will show that you are serious about academics now (normally, your grad gpa wouldn't really matter, but since neither your ug nor grad one will count, it is good you have something to balance it/show you are more serious now). Your LSAT is great. You will easily get into T1 schools. I would apply broadly to the T14/T20 in the region you are wanting to practice in. If you are not American, you'll really need biglaw to carry your visa stuff, so you kinda need to go to a top20 school. I think your sweet spot will be somewhere like Gtown.
I'm an American, but had an international education- I was kinda the opposite from you (superior ratings and lower 16x LSAT score), frankly, in all likelihood you'll have a better cycle than I did.
My cycle:
T2s(schools ranked 50-100)- fullrides
T1s- 2/3-3/4 scholarships
T20- in at sticker
T14- waitlisted/Rejected
I ended up choosing a T1 school on close to a fullride in the region I wanted to practice. However, I'm an American citizen and did not have biglaw as a goal (nor did I land biglaw; and as an additional note, I am not top of my class, and many struggled at OCI at my school). If you aren't American, you'll really need to go to a T20+ school in order to secure biglaw and a visa. There may perhaps be someone on here that knows more about other sponsorship paths, but I'm don't.
Best of luck.

[FrenchMomo]

Are you sure? Because since the degree classification provided by AACRAO to LSAC doesn't count toward the school's medians and what they report to ABA I would say thay the Below Average classification will hurt you but will not prevent you to go to a T14 law school.

I do agree with you crazywafflez, but his lsat is astronomically high and I think that he is in a better position, for example, than an US student with a reportable GPA below 3.0 and with the same LSAT score as him.

I'd say shoot your shot and blanket T14 and T20.

Btw I have a question for you: Why is your degree rated as "below average", maybe there are some circumstances that you can explain in an addendum?

Best of luck my fellow International

[Dolna Ray]

Nothing. Just got into a university with very very harsh grading. I didnt fail but had to work very hard to keep my honours intact. Some of my batch mates had to graduate without honours (if you are from UK or India, you will understand what I mean graduating without honours)
I was not good enough to get above average grades and had to work hard just to stay afloat. That's about it.

[Dolna Ray]

Your below average will hurt you, but certainly won't tank you. Your grad GPA improvement will show that you are serious about academics now (normally, your grad gpa wouldn't really matter, but since neither your ug nor grad one will count, it is good you have something to balance it/show you are more serious now). Your LSAT is great. You will easily get into T1 schools. I would apply broadly to the T14/T20 in the region you are wanting to practice in. If you are not American, you'll really need biglaw to carry your visa stuff, so you kinda need to go to a top20 school. I think your sweet spot will be somewhere like Gtown.
I'm an American, but had an international education- I was kinda the opposite from you (superior ratings and lower 16x LSAT score), frankly, in all likelihood you'll have a better cycle than I did.
My cycle:
T2s(schools ranked 50-100)- fullrides
T1s- 2/3-3/4 scholarships
T20- in at sticker
T14- waitlisted/Rejected
I ended up choosing a T1 school on close to a fullride in the region I wanted to practice. However, I'm an American citizen and did not have biglaw as a goal (nor did I land biglaw; and as an additional note, I am not top of my class, and many struggled at OCI at my school). If you aren't American, you'll really need to go to a T20+ school in order to secure biglaw and a visa. There may perhaps be someone on here that knows more about other sponsorship paths, but I'm don't.
Best of luck.

You had Superior and decent Lsat and was dinged by T14.
I will be lucky if I get in anywhere above Thomas Cooley , Ava Maria Apalachian or something.

[Dolna Ray]

These are some of the schools I am applying to

American U
Cardozo
Brooklyn
Washington St Louis
IU Bloomington
U of Alabama
Penn State Dickinson
Michell Hamlin yes yes am desperate
Suffolk

I am hoping I get into any of these

[namefromplace]

That is an incredibly odd list for your numbers, though I admit I'm not super familiar with international undergrad GPAs. Why did you choose those schools, specifically? Why do you want to go to law school?

As stated above, as an international student, big law firms are likely your best shot at getting a visa sponsored and they will be unlikely to want to hire you unless you go to a Top 20 school. Your LSAT score is amazing and will make you a super splitter with decent-but-not certain odds at every law school ranked below the T6. Apply to all of the schools ranked T6-T20. So of the list you gave, WUSTL would be the only one you should apply to.

Pretty much all of the others would be likely to accept you but also give you a low chance of actually getting hired out of law school. If you have citizenship or another path to a green card, then it's a slightly different story, but even with a low GPA, your LSAT is strong enough that you shouldn't be considering schools like Cardozo and American U.

[Dolna Ray]

Just am planning to apply wide as that's what one ex super splitter told me : Apply wide across the range if you can
I am also applying to
ASU
OSU
Pepperdine
And few more ranged in T50- 90.

Beggars cannot be choosers and all that.
Wash U will be a dream but honestly am not counting on it.
Like I said I will be glad if I dont end up in U of Phoenix or Thomas Cooley or something.

[FrenchMomo]

I am sorry, I respect all your opinions but I completely disagree with everything stated here.

We can't say that he is a splitter or whatever since his GPA does NOT count toward the medians, and the evaluation provided by LSAC for his degree is actually nothing more than an information provided to law school admission officers who are not familiar with the applicant home country grading system.

And as a proof of what I am saying, I would like you to go to past years International cycles spreadsheets, and you will see that there is someone who got into Columbia Law School with an "Average" rating and an LSAT lower than yours (2016-2017 cycle)

I will never say it enough but this "below average" rating is just informative and if you make a PERFECT application I am sure that you can get into T14 with such an extraordinary LSAT score

[nixy]

I don’t know what impact exactly the “below average” ranking will have - I agree that it’s more for information purposes than anything else, because it doesn’t have to be reported for rankings, but there aren’t a lot of people online who have a below average ranking and I can’t say schools won’t have no qualms about it. That said, LSAT is obviously way more important. And OP, all due respect to crazywafflez, but your LSAT is *much* higher than theirs, and that will make a difference. So don’t freak out that their experience means you’re doomed - you’re not similarly situated.

That said, I think it is safer to consider the OP a splitter. The GPA evaluation doesn’t count toward medians and it may be that this school system is known to law schools for its harsh grading (especially since it sounds like OP did actually graduate with honors), but I think it’s still safe to say the cycle will be unpredictable (especially since there are more high-LSAT scorers out there this year). I do think it’s a weird list of schools, though.

[crazywafflez]

Fully agree with Nixy- and no offense taken, hah. OP, you have a fantastic score- much, much higher than my own. You will certainly have a better cycle. You really should only be looking at T14-20 schools. I do think you should still think of yourself as a splitter to some extent, however, French is right that it is informative only- we just aren't too sure on how much a below average will hurt you, but as I said in my original post, it will not tank you. You have a great shot at quite a few T20/T14s and possibly with decent scholarship packages. I would honestly, in your shoes, apply to H, CCN on down to WashU/Vandy. I feel comfortable saying you'll get into a T20 with a pretty darn good package. I sent you my cycle merely to show that you have better stats and I still got into a T20. You are going to have a better cycle than me. You just may have a slightly unpredictable one, as Nixy said. You may be dinged from Vanderbilt, in at Gtown, dinged at Duke, in at NW with a scholly; we won't really know, so, you'll need to apply to those 15 or so schools at take the option you are most comfortable with. There's no reason for you to be looking at ASU or OSU, let alone some of the others on your list, unless you are do-or-die Ohio/AZ (and even then, I'd suggest a T20/14).

[namefromplace]

Just am planning to apply wide as that's what one ex super splitter told me : Apply wide across the range if you can
I am also applying to
ASU
OSU
Pepperdine
And few more ranged in T50- 90.

Beggars cannot be choosers and all that.
Wash U will be a dream but honestly am not counting on it.
Like I said I will be glad if I dont end up in U of Phoenix or Thomas Cooley or something.

Though there has been some disagreement on this thread, I think the general consensus is that you are *not* a beggar and that if you apply across the T20 you will get an offer somewhere, and likely some good scholarship options. Again, if you are an international student and will need sponsorship for a green card, I strongly recommend against going anywhere that isn't T20 (and would recommend going as high up in the T14 as possible).