171/3.99 ED Columbia? Forum

[wooooooooop]

Hi all, hope you're doing well! Since my last post, I managed to bump my LSAT to a 171 for the August 2020 test. My June 2020 test was a 165 and my February 2020 test was a 167. I hope the drop in June won't be a problem.

I was checking out MyLSN and it seemed like I have a better chance at Harvard Law (~69%) than Columbia Law (~60%). However, would it be wise to ED Columbia Law if I really want to go there? I'm worried about being waitlisted, which seems like a rather common outcome for people at my stats. Also, any advice regarding what should be my safety schools and target schools?

Thanks so much for all your help guys!

[Dcc617]

ED is dumb because you can’t negotiate scholarships. You have good numbers, apply across the T14 and maximize scholarship money.

[showusyourtorts]

I think that the *only* reason to ED at Columbia would be if either (1) you have absolute boat loads of money at your disposal or (2) you have some kind of super serious reason why Columbia is leagues better than the other T14 schools.

Perhaps a good way to put it is this: right now, if you knew you were admitted to the following schools, if you were choosing between $0 at Columbia, $120k at NYU and a full ride at your choice of UVA/Michigan/Duke/Georgetown, which would you choose? If Columbia, then by all means apply ED. If you gave pause, then I would encourage you to not apply ED.

I had materially similar stats and ended up with scholarship offers similar to the above, as did others in my range.

Even if you know you plan on doing BigLaw for 3-5 years, it makes an absolute world of difference to only have $90k debt (or lower) versus $300k debt. That difference cannot be underestimated. I ended up choosing the middle road (the ~120k at NYU-esque option) and wish I could go back and have chosen the full ride at a lower-ranked T14. The vast majority of my peers that were in my position ended up feeling the same way. I wish somebody had stopped me back then to emphasize the freedom that having no debt and a 190k salary provides.

[wooooooooop]

I think that the *only* reason to ED at Columbia would be if either (1) you have absolute boat loads of money at your disposal or (2) you have some kind of super serious reason why Columbia is leagues better than the other T14 schools.

Perhaps a good way to put it is this: right now, if you knew you were admitted to the following schools, if you were choosing between $0 at Columbia, $120k at NYU and a full ride at your choice of UVA/Michigan/Duke/Georgetown, which would you choose? If Columbia, then by all means apply ED. If you gave pause, then I would encourage you to not apply ED.

I had materially similar stats and ended up with scholarship offers similar to the above, as did others in my range.

Even if you know you plan on doing BigLaw for 3-5 years, it makes an absolute world of difference to only have $90k debt (or lower) versus $300k debt. That difference cannot be underestimated. I ended up choosing the middle road (the ~120k at NYU-esque option) and wish I could go back and have chosen the full ride at a lower-ranked T14. The vast majority of my peers that were in my position ended up feeling the same way. I wish somebody had stopped me back then to emphasize the freedom that having no debt and a 190k salary provides.

Thank you for your response! You're completely right about the debt aspect. I know applying ED to Columbia would limit my opportunities at other places. Do you think HLS would be within reach?

[showusyourtorts]

I think that the *only* reason to ED at Columbia would be if either (1) you have absolute boat loads of money at your disposal or (2) you have some kind of super serious reason why Columbia is leagues better than the other T14 schools.

Perhaps a good way to put it is this: right now, if you knew you were admitted to the following schools, if you were choosing between $0 at Columbia, $120k at NYU and a full ride at your choice of UVA/Michigan/Duke/Georgetown, which would you choose? If Columbia, then by all means apply ED. If you gave pause, then I would encourage you to not apply ED.

I had materially similar stats and ended up with scholarship offers similar to the above, as did others in my range.

Even if you know you plan on doing BigLaw for 3-5 years, it makes an absolute world of difference to only have $90k debt (or lower) versus $300k debt. That difference cannot be underestimated. I ended up choosing the middle road (the ~120k at NYU-esque option) and wish I could go back and have chosen the full ride at a lower-ranked T14. The vast majority of my peers that were in my position ended up feeling the same way. I wish somebody had stopped me back then to emphasize the freedom that having no debt and a 190k salary provides.

Thank you for your response! You're completely right about the debt aspect. I know applying ED to Columbia would limit my opportunities at other places. Do you think HLS would be within reach?

Just based off MyLSN, it seems that Harvard is certainly within reach when applying normal decision. If I'm using the website correctly, it seems that 14 out of 18 people over the past three or so years that had a 171 and a 3.98-4.0 GPA were accepted. None of those folks had applied ED, so I'm not sure how much of a bump ED would afford you in Harvard (or CLS) admissions.

You should be able to get significant scholarship money (think: full ride) at a lower T14, and are at the very least in the running for significant (think: half ride) money at a CCN, if not higher. If your goals are generic biglaw and if you plan to debt finance your education, then I don't think that losing those options are worth the potential "Harvard admissions" bump.

I can't say enough how important it is that you think very seriously about whether you want to enter the working world with 300k of debt. The vast majority of people at the lower T14 also end up with a similar/same job (perhaps, on average, at a lower-ranked Vault firm that nonetheless pays 190k) that then move on to relatively similar exit options. It's fantastic to have Harvard/CLS on your resume, but you'll probably be relatively similarly well-off job-wise and loads better off financially with Georgetown/Duke/Cornell/etc on your resume. I would caution people that take the lower T14 full ride to make sure that they are prepared to feel some pressure to work hard and do well their first year; it seems from your GPA that you are probably pretty well positioned to succeed on a test, which makes that concern perhaps a bit less pressing than otherwise. Just my two cents.

[wooooooooop]

I think that the *only* reason to ED at Columbia would be if either (1) you have absolute boat loads of money at your disposal or (2) you have some kind of super serious reason why Columbia is leagues better than the other T14 schools.

Perhaps a good way to put it is this: right now, if you knew you were admitted to the following schools, if you were choosing between $0 at Columbia, $120k at NYU and a full ride at your choice of UVA/Michigan/Duke/Georgetown, which would you choose? If Columbia, then by all means apply ED. If you gave pause, then I would encourage you to not apply ED.

I had materially similar stats and ended up with scholarship offers similar to the above, as did others in my range.

Even if you know you plan on doing BigLaw for 3-5 years, it makes an absolute world of difference to only have $90k debt (or lower) versus $300k debt. That difference cannot be underestimated. I ended up choosing the middle road (the ~120k at NYU-esque option) and wish I could go back and have chosen the full ride at a lower-ranked T14. The vast majority of my peers that were in my position ended up feeling the same way. I wish somebody had stopped me back then to emphasize the freedom that having no debt and a 190k salary provides.

Thank you for your response! You're completely right about the debt aspect. I know applying ED to Columbia would limit my opportunities at other places. Do you think HLS would be within reach?

Just based off MyLSN, it seems that Harvard is certainly within reach when applying normal decision. If I'm using the website correctly, it seems that 14 out of 18 people over the past three or so years that had a 171 and a 3.98-4.0 GPA were accepted. None of those folks had applied ED, so I'm not sure how much of a bump ED would afford you in Harvard (or CLS) admissions.

You should be able to get significant scholarship money (think: full ride) at a lower T14, and are at the very least in the running for significant (think: half ride) money at a CCN, if not higher. If your goals are generic biglaw and if you plan to debt finance your education, then I don't think that losing those options are worth the potential "Harvard admissions" bump.

I can't say enough how important it is that you think very seriously about whether you want to enter the working world with 300k of debt. The vast majority of people at the lower T14 also end up with a similar/same job (perhaps, on average, at a lower-ranked Vault firm that nonetheless pays 190k) that then move on to relatively similar exit options. It's fantastic to have Harvard/CLS on your resume, but you'll probably be relatively similarly well-off job-wise and loads better off financially with Georgetown/Duke/Cornell/etc on your resume. I would caution people that take the lower T14 full ride to make sure that they are prepared to feel some pressure to work hard and do well their first year; it seems from your GPA that you are probably pretty well positioned to succeed on a test, which makes that concern perhaps a bit less pressing than otherwise. Just my two cents.

Thanks a lot for your input!

One thing I've been considering is applying this cycle and requesting a deferment to serve 2 years in the Army, which is something I've really wanted to do. I would get at least some of the partial GI Bill benefits. I'm talking to the recruiter and awaiting confirmation from him about 2 years active duty as he has mentioned it before. Some have told me not to go this route, but I was wondering if you or anyone else had any advice regarding this? Is it bad to request a deferment if I would like to serve in the Army? It's just another route I'm considering!

[The Lsat Airbender]

2-year deferments are usually hard to get, and schools don't like giving deferments for voluntary stuff (which this would be) if they can help it. If you really want to serve, seems better to join the Army now and then apply to law school in 24 months.

[wooooooooop]

2-year deferments are usually hard to get, and schools don't like giving deferments for voluntary stuff (which this would be) if they can help it. If you really want to serve, seems better to join the Army now and then apply to law school in 24 months.

Thanks for your input!

That's sort of what I was thinking as well—just applying this cycle to schools with relatively liberal deferral policies (like HLS and CLS, among others), and seeing how things play out (and request a deferment if things go my way). If I don't get into those schools, I'll just serve as I wanted to in my original plan and reapply after my time in the Army. Would that be a bad strategy?

[logan3000]

why even apply now if you don’t intend to matriculate for two years? that doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t see any decent reason to apply now, especially considering you’ll probably get better results applying with the military experience on your resume anyway.

[The Lsat Airbender]

schools with relatively liberal deferral policies (like HLS and CLS, among others)

You sure about this?

https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissio ... /#faq-4-18

At Harvard Law School, we expect that all applicants fully intend to enroll in the J.D. program in the fall of the year in which they apply. We also understand that individual circumstances related to enrollment can change after submitting an application.

We typically reserve deferrals for students who have specific academic or professional plans for a limited time period. Deferrals are in most cases limited to one or two years, though we have the ability to grant longer deferrals or extensions, for serious illness, visa delays, and extenuating personal circumstances.

We customarily approve deferral requests for military reasons, whether in the case of active deployment or involuntary extensions of military service.

Admitted applicants will receive more detailed information about the procedures for applying for a deferral. Deferral requests are reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

Columbia seems more open, but I agree with logan3000. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[wooooooooop]

why even apply now if you don’t intend to matriculate for two years? that doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t see any decent reason to apply now, especially considering you’ll probably get better results applying with the military experience on your resume anyway.

Yeah, you both are definitely right about that! I guess it's just the sense of security of having a place in a law school after I'm done serving.

[wooooooooop]

schools with relatively liberal deferral policies (like HLS and CLS, among others)

You sure about this?

https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissio ... /#faq-4-18

At Harvard Law School, we expect that all applicants fully intend to enroll in the J.D. program in the fall of the year in which they apply. We also understand that individual circumstances related to enrollment can change after submitting an application.

We typically reserve deferrals for students who have specific academic or professional plans for a limited time period. Deferrals are in most cases limited to one or two years, though we have the ability to grant longer deferrals or extensions, for serious illness, visa delays, and extenuating personal circumstances.

We customarily approve deferral requests for military reasons, whether in the case of active deployment or involuntary extensions of military service.

Admitted applicants will receive more detailed information about the procedures for applying for a deferral. Deferral requests are reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

Columbia seems more open, but I agree with logan3000. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

To add on to what I said before, it's also because I want to keep my options open in case something happens with the Army. For example, if I need a waiver, but it is eventually denied after months or something along those lines. I'm not fully committed to the Army as of now, but I know I want to go to law school though!

[The Lsat Airbender]

To add on to what I said before, it's also because I want to keep my options open in case something happens with the Army. For example, if I need a waiver, but it is eventually denied after months or something along those lines. I'm not fully committed to the Army as of now, but I know I want to go to law school though!

You can't keep your options open forever. With your numbers, you will almost certainly get decent law-school options, and I doubt the Army is going to reject you either, so it's not like you need to hedge here. Just pick one.

[Specter1389]

Getting partial GI Bill Benefits is not going to do much for you at any of the private schools you are considering. If you did two years and had 80% of GI Bill Benefits, it would basically pay $19,580 a year, which while not bad is not much compared to the benefits 80% would pay out at a public school. Would make far more sense to go to UVA, Berkeley, or Michigan where the GI Bill would would pay 80% of the in-state tuition after two years of service (so would pay $52,400/year at UVA). If you want to go the military path for the GI Bill, might as well do 3 to get full benefits and thus have Yellow Ribbon kick in at the private schools. You will likely have to sign a 3 year contract to enlist anyway, so probably a moot point.

That said, I think you have numbers where you are going to have good scholarship opportunities anyway. If I were you, I would only join the military if you have a strong desire to actually serve, not just for the GI Bill. As a veteran who has advised many high school students, I am not opposed to joining the military to better your opportunities in life, but in your case, I don't think it is going to make much of a difference since you are going to have great options as is.