327 GRE/3.6 GPA Forum

[AStocks]

Took the GRE because I'm applying to some joint degree programs that require GRE, but also applying to some law schools only. Prefer not to commit time and dollars to taking LSAT, and GRE score (168V/159Q) seems good enough for most of the non-Ivies. Getting the sense from reading this board that law schools only kind of/sort of accept the GRE. What is the basis for this understanding? Is there any admissions data available for GRE only applicants?

[AJordan]

This is the most recent piece I've seen on this. https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/gre-v ... -rankings/

Cliffs: Nobody really knows, but the metric analysis from that source (a reputable admissions consulting organization) as well as other anecdotal evidence I've seen at a few different places seems to indicate that GRE candidates under-perform their LSAT counterparts in admissions.

[Taylorswiftfang]

Actually I have sent e-mail to T14 about GRE or LSAT and the answer is not so friendly to GRE. By the way, there is no database because of the rare applicants using GRE. But what I can tell is that if you want to enter into T14, you'd better get 338+ in GRE, in other words, full mark in GRE.

[cavalier1138]

In addition to what's been posted, what sort of dual-degree programs are you applying to?

We've seen explicit statements from schools like Berkeley saying that they really only consider GRE applicants who have some kind of significant work experience or an advanced degree in an unrelated field (i.e. scientists/engineers). And even though other schools haven't been as open about that standard, it seems to apply across the board.

So if you don't fit that description, you should take the LSAT.

[AStocks]

Thinking joint degree in public administration. Thanks for the feedback. I will explore my options.

[007sean]

Your GRE score is very good. Sharply disagree with the negativity about GRE expressed above. Of the top 20 schools only very few (Stanford, Michigan and Berkeley ) do not accept GRE. Duke just announced it accepts GRE. GRE may prevent you from getting money or perhaps from applying early binding admission. But in terms of admissions it gives schools more flexibility because GRE admits do not affect their USNews rankings. Moreover, in this year of COVID, schools will be even more flexible.

[cavalier1138]

Your GRE score is very good. Sharply disagree with the negativity about GRE expressed above. Of the top 20 schools only very few (Stanford, Michigan and Berkeley ) do not accept GRE. Duke just announced it accepts GRE. GRE may prevent you from getting money or perhaps from applying early binding admission. But in terms of admissions it gives schools more flexibility because GRE admits do not affect their USNews rankings. Moreover, in this year of COVID, schools will be even more flexible.

Your optimism is great, but it's not supported by any data (especially the speculation about this year being "more flexible" because of COVID-19). You're also incorrect about which schools accept GRE; as noted above, although Berkeley specifically notes that they are only going to consider GRE applicants with specific backgrounds, they do accept the test.

I disagree--even if we assume that your position was correct--that the OP's score is strong enough to make them competitive at the T13. These schools accept people from the upper 90th percentiles on the LSAT. It makes no sense that they would accept a GRE score that appears to be in the 80-90th percentile alongside a GPA that dips below many of these schools' 25ths.

In short, it's nice to be encouraging and optimistic. But it doesn't help applicants to give them an unrealistic view of their potential cycle, especially when they can do something as simple as taking the LSAT to give themselves a wider array of options.

[007sean]

Moderator — there are several T14 schools Whose low 25 percentile is a 163 LSAT. That’s 87.5 percentile. The poster has an LSAT predictive score of 168 based in the GRE conversion calculator. Berkeley only accepts the GRE for dual degree. I do agree with you the the GPA is soft unless it comes from a serious top grade deflating school in stem subjects. I am commenting on the GRE issue per se.
We should add the caveat that nobody really knows for sure how schools are approaching the GRE

[007sean]

PS — what is your score in the analytical writing GRE section ? For schools who average the GRE sections, that is one third. Moreover, several schools stress that they are very focused in that section.

[cavalier1138]

Moderator — there are several T14 schools Whose low 25 percentile is a 163 LSAT. That’s 87.5 percentile. The poster has an LSAT predictive score of 168 based in the GRE conversion calculator. Berkeley only accepts the GRE for dual degree. I do agree with you the the GPA is soft unless it comes from a serious top grade deflating school in stem subjects. I am commenting on the GRE issue per se.

A couple of things:

First, there are not "several" T14 schools with a 25th percentile of 163. There are three that I could find: Penn, Michigan (last year only), and Georgetown. And a quick look at MyLSN confirms that a 163/3.6x is extremely unlikely to get into any top school.

More importantly, the GRE conversion calculator is meaningless, especially because it's clearly inaccurate. The OP's GRE score puts them in the 80-something percentile for GRE takers. A 168 is generally a 95-96th percentile LSAT score. They simply aren't comparable, and law school administrators have flat-out said that even when considering score in equivalent percentiles, they will tend to defer to the applicant with the LSAT score (largely because the LSAT is better understood in law school admissions, but probably also because everyone knows the GRE is an easier test).

And while it would be great if schools accounted for GPA "deflation" or STEM majors, they don't. We repeatedly hear from applicants here who are hoping for a boost in admissions because their undergrad graded on a what they perceived as a harsher scale than others or because they were an engineering major who took hard courses. They don't get one.

So again, optimism is nice. And you're correct that we don't know for sure how GRE applicants are being considered across top schools. But we know enough to know that your proposed scenario is extremely unlikely. There's nothing to suggest that someone in a similar situation to the OP should rely on these numbers for T13 admission, especially when the applicant lacks any specialized experience that would justify only taking the GRE for law school admissions purposes.

[007sean]

Last time I looked, three = several.
You are not accounting for key factors such as quality of undergraduate school and major, trends in grades recommendations etc. Its not a strictly numbers game. I am living proof of that with a very soft LSAT And admission to all the T14 I applied to except Yale, Stanford and Harvard. Moreover, this year the ability to pay, I.e, not needing money, will help a lot.

Now we do agree on one thing. It’s better to take the LSAT.

[nixy]

Quality of undergraduate school and major only matter on the margins, if comparing candidates with otherwise similar stats/qualifications. They don't make someone competitive somewhere they're not.

A "very soft LSAT" is usually accompanied with a very high LSAT and then your outcome depends as much on what statistics a school is looking for (do they need more high GPAs to balance their class?) as the individual's letters etc.

I also don't understand why ability to pay would matter. It's also not going to get someone into a school where they're not otherwise competitive (and plenty of schools offer admission before they see someone's financial aid documents).

[007sean]

Actually no. Very soft in my case was 164 Lsat. With 3.77 Overall GPA And 3.86 and 3.83 GPA in each of my double majors. From elite school known for grade deflation.

[cavalier1138]

Actually no. Very soft in my case was 164 Lsat. With 3.77 Overall GPA And 3.86 and 3.83 GPA in each of my double majors. From elite school known for grade deflation.

But a 3.77 (which is over an A- average) is solidly at median for most of the lower T13. So depending on which schools you applied to, those results aren't actually surprising. Scholarships would be another matter, but if you had any softs going for you (including non-URM softs like being LGBT, etc.), admission to schools like Michigan, etc. would be in the cards.

Like it or not, admissions is first and foremost a numbers game. This has gone far afield from the OP's initial question and really has nothing to do with how GRE scores are weighted in the admissions process. But you can't make vague statements about how you got in to unspecified with different stats (and an actual LSAT score) and then claim that it proves admissions are affected by things we know for sure don't have an impact, such as a student's ability to pay or "grade deflation."

[007sean]

I talked about my LSAT in response to a comment made. My original point about OP’a original issues stands. He has very good GRE’s. These will not be an obstacle per SE. GPA is a little low. The increasing acceptance of the GRE, and its nearly universal in the top 20 law schools, suggest that admissions offices are quite sophisticated about the GRE. I will agree that, all things being equal a high LSAT is better than a high GRE, because it helps the schools with the rankings.
I think we have beaten this topic to a pulp.

[cavalier1138]

My original point about OP’a original issues stands. He has very good GRE’s. These will not be an obstacle per SE.

*sigh*

You still haven't supported this point, but you're right. It's been beaten to death (unnecessarily).

[AStocks]

My writing score is 5.5. I was a political science major with no quantitative classes since high school except for stats. D1 athlete if that helps explain the GPA. It was like I had a full time job on the side.