Chance Me @ Kent and UIUC 3.13 UGPA, 158 LSAT, Non-URM Forum

[Another0Ler]

Hey all. I still need to apply but the two main schools I am thinking about are Kent and UIUC, the former obviously in anticipation of significant $$ looking at MyLSN. I was wondering if UIUC would be worth it with sticker over possible $$ at Kent. Yes, I am going to retake but I am thinking my safety is Kent. I have lived in IL my whole life and intend to practice here. I am flexible with what I practice (does not need to be biglaw). Taken the LSAT 4 or 5 times. Thanks for any and all advice.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Looks like you can expect either $30k or $90k at Kent - kind of a shitty option given there's still another $165k (or $225k) for you to finance and, even if you're cool with literally any full-time, JD-required job, Kent only gives you about a 60% chance at one. And you're an auto-reject at UIUC.

If you want you go to law school you first need to substantially increase your LSAT score.

[Another0Ler]

Appreciate the timely response. Forgot to mention I would be commuting from home, so there would be no COL.

[trebekismyhero]

Kent only makes sense with a full ride, which with your numbers you won't get. Living at home will help. UIUC will open up more doors in Chicago, but you need to increase your LSAT. If you increase it by just 5 points you'll get in with a good scholarship and if you can get over a 165 you'll be able to get close to a full ride.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Appreciate the timely response. Forgot to mention I would be commuting from home, so there would be no COL.

This actually doesn't matter from an opportunity-cost (i.e., correct) perspective. You could commute from home to McDonald's, too, and bank like $100k in the three years you wasted on a subpar law school. You'd have better career prospects that way, too.

[trebekismyhero]

Kent only makes sense with a full ride, which with your numbers you won't get. Living at home will help. UIUC will open up more doors in Chicago, but you need to increase your LSAT. If you increase it by just 5 points you'll get in with a good scholarship and if you can get over a 165 you'll be able to get close to a full ride.

And just to add, if you somehow were to get into UIUC with your current numbers, UIUC at sticker is not worth it. It has a really good reputation in Chicago, but there are at most 13 schools that it is worth paying sticker and really more like 3. UIUC is only worth it with at least a 50% scholarship.

[QContinuum]

I have lived in IL my whole life and intend to practice here. I am flexible with what I practice (does not need to be biglaw).

What kind of legal work do you envision yourself doing for the next several decades of your life? Would you be satisfied working for a state or local legal aid outfit providing high-volume services to the indigent on generally straightforward civil matters, like landlord/tenant issues, welfare benefits issues, veterans' benefits claims, etc. (i.e., not the ACLU or anything involving "impact" civil rights litigation)? A state or local prosecutor's or public defender's office, largely handling DUIs and moving violations? A small (<10 lawyers, and likely <5 lawyers) firm?

And what kind of salary do you envision earning as a lawyer? Would you be satisfied starting at ~$50k/year?

[Another0Ler]

Kent only makes sense with a full ride, which with your numbers you won't get. Living at home will help. UIUC will open up more doors in Chicago, but you need to increase your LSAT. If you increase it by just 5 points you'll get in with a good scholarship and if you can get over a 165 you'll be able to get close to a full ride.

And just to add, if you somehow were to get into UIUC with your current numbers, UIUC at sticker is not worth it. It has a really good reputation in Chicago, but there are at most 13 schools that it is worth paying sticker and really more like 3. UIUC is only worth it with at least a 50% scholarship.

When you say "full ride", do you mean with ALL fees/COL paid (stipend) or "full tuition"? I see them incorrectly used interchangeably, I take you to mean the former given your post counts but I wanted to be sure. Appreciate your comment re: UIUC @ 50%, I was wondering if any school is worth sticker.

I have lived in IL my whole life and intend to practice here. I am flexible with what I practice (does not need to be biglaw).

What kind of legal work do you envision yourself doing for the next several decades of your life? Would you be satisfied working for a state or local legal aid outfit providing high-volume services to the indigent on generally straightforward civil matters, like landlord/tenant issues, welfare benefits issues, veterans' benefits claims, etc. (i.e., not the ACLU or anything involving "impact" civil rights litigation)? A state or local prosecutor's or public defender's office, largely handling DUIs and moving violations? A small (<10 lawyers, and likely <5 lawyers) firm?

And what kind of salary do you envision earning as a lawyer? Would you be satisfied starting at ~$50k/year?

Yes, I would be pretty fine with all of that. I am taking the LSAT in January and hoping to increase my score again.

[nixy]

When people talk about a full ride here, they're generally talking about full tuition. COL/stipends are pretty rare (some schools do offer them, particularly as part of named scholarships or scholarships to target a specific group like people interested in public interest, but they're not common).

[Johnnybgoode92]

Please do not go to either. Even at a full ride there is a significant chance you will never practice as an attorney. You will forgo three years of income, networking, and potential promotions to roll the dice.

[Another0Ler]

This may surprise you, TLS, but someone may just listen to you for once. I am having serious doubts about all of this. My friend is a criminal prosecutor in Wisconsin and I'm pretty sure he paid close to sticker. I don't know the details but his debt must be astronomical. I have a history/political science degree. I might just find some research position, I am going to talk about it with my professor when we meet to discuss my letter of rec. I figured, a 60k salary doing history would be way less work than 60k as an attorney. There is still a chance I go to law school, but I need to see what they offer. I might try to raise my score while I check out history/poli sci positions, but over all I am having pretty deep doubts. Three years of income + networking is tremendous, only to land a low-tier legal job? I would not mind this if there is minimal debt, but I also have a suspicion I am severely underestimating just how much paper work being a lawyer involves. I can pursue my interest in law by reading cases and legal theory, with none of the downsides...For now, it's a very big maybe.

[Johnnybgoode92]

This may surprise you, TLS, but someone may just listen to you for once. I am having serious doubts about all of this. My friend is a criminal prosecutor in Wisconsin and I'm pretty sure he paid close to sticker. I don't know the details but his debt must be astronomical. I have a history/political science degree. I might just find some research position, I am going to talk about it with my professor when we meet to discuss my letter of rec. I figured, a 60k salary doing history would be way less work than 60k as an attorney. There is still a chance I go to law school, but I need to see what they offer. I might try to raise my score while I check out history/poli sci positions, but over all I am having pretty deep doubts. Three years of income + networking is tremendous, only to land a low-tier legal job? I would not mind this if there is minimal debt, but I also have a suspicion I am severely underestimating just how much paper work being a lawyer involves. I can pursue my interest in law by reading cases and legal theory, with none of the downsides...For now, it's a very big maybe.

Wise beyond your years. You get what going to those schools would entail and how they can be life ruining. I will caution you that being an academic researcher will unduly limit your options down the road because it is so niche. Also 60k would be a lot of money for those positions at that level.

[QContinuum]

Wise beyond your years. You get what going to those schools would entail and how they can be life ruining. I will caution you that being an academic researcher will unduly limit your options down the road because it is so niche. Also 60k would be a lot of money for those positions at that level.

Completely second the above. I think at this point, there's no harm and a lot of benefit in doing academic research for a few years. It's a way for OP to make a good living doing something he loves. What's not to like? Johnny's caution, I believe, applies to being a research assistant long-term (I'd say >3 years). At that point, OP would still be able to apply to grad school and, yes, law school, but would likely have difficulty going directly into the private sector. Employers would be skeptical about hiring someone who graduated from college >3 years ago whose only work experience is in academia. So that's a trap that OP should be wary of. And even worse, if OP stays in the RAship for a very long time, say for 15, 20 years, then the professor loses funding or retires or passes away, then OP would really be in a pickle. Even if OP then goes to grad school or law school, age discrimination's a real thing, and employers would also be wary about whether OP would bail for the next history gig that comes along.

So, to sum up, I think OP's current plan is very wise and sound, with the caveat that they should reevaluate their long-term/permanent career goals a year or two into this position.

[nixy]

$60k for a history research position is extremely unrealistic, if you could even get one - there are too many un/underemployed history MA/PhDs floating around who would kill for such a position. (If you have a prof who has a grant or similar to fund such positions and you feel confident they would hire you, that’s one thing, but it’s not very common.) That’s not to say you should rush to law school instead, just that you may need to re-evaluate a little more deeply.

[Another0Ler]

Wise beyond your years. You get what going to those schools would entail and how they can be life ruining. I will caution you that being an academic researcher will unduly limit your options down the road because it is so niche. Also 60k would be a lot of money for those positions at that level.

Completely second the above. I think at this point, there's no harm and a lot of benefit in doing academic research for a few years. It's a way for OP to make a good living doing something he loves. What's not to like? Johnny's caution, I believe, applies to being a research assistant long-term (I'd say >3 years). At that point, OP would still be able to apply to grad school and, yes, law school, but would likely have difficulty going directly into the private sector. Employers would be skeptical about hiring someone who graduated from college >3 years ago whose only work experience is in academia. So that's a trap that OP should be wary of. And even worse, if OP stays in the RAship for a very long time, say for 15, 20 years, then the professor loses funding or retires or passes away, then OP would really be in a pickle. Even if OP then goes to grad school or law school, age discrimination's a real thing, and employers would also be wary about whether OP would bail for the next history gig that comes along.

So, to sum up, I think OP's current plan is very wise and sound, with the caveat that they should reevaluate their long-term/permanent career goals a year or two into this position.

Thank you all for the replies. I forgot to mention I am 26, however. Would the history caveat still apply? I have yet to meet with my old undergrad professor, he is going to get back to me when he is in town. I have been out of undergrad for a couple years but have some work experience with customers/etc. I am starting to feel that if they give the right scholarship, I may take it.