Where do I take a shot? Forum

[monroe8]

First, hello everyone. New to this forum.

Second, I'm applying a bit late, but my applications are mostly in. What I can't decide is whether my applications to my two reach schools, Wash U and Duke, would benefit from declaring Early Decision.

I'm from Missouri, so Wash U appeals to me. And Duke's Dual Degree program is exactly what I want to do. But my numbers are pretty bad. I have a 3.1 GPA and a 165 LSAT. I offer other things: I speak four languages fluently; I am 37, so I have a lot of professional experience; and I've lived in six countries, so I've cultivated a unique perspective. Plus, I wrote some killer personal statements. But isn't this all a numbers game? The predictors give me a 5% shot at getting in to Duke and 25% at Wash U.

I've already received six-figure scholarship offers from Washington and Lee and Indiana, but I'd like to shoot a little higher. As an open question: do you think there's any chance Duke or Wash U would accept me, and would declaring Early Decision tip the scales one way or another?

Thanks!

[cavalier1138]

Do not apply anywhere ED without a guaranteed scholarship.

I'm from Missouri, so Wash U appeals to me. And Duke's Dual Degree program is exactly what I want to do.

What do you want to do?

[monroe8]

International Human Rights. I want to work for an NGO with an transnational scope. That's why Duke's JD/LLM in International and Comparative Law appeals to me so much. I feel like it'll really set me apart.

[The Lsat Airbender]

International Human Rights. I want to work for an NGO with an transnational scope. That's why Duke's JD/LLM in International and Comparative Law appeals to me so much. I feel like it'll really set me apart.

Sorry, but it won't. Law school in general is not a great credential for this kind of work - you'd be better served spending three years on Urdu lessons or something.

[QContinuum]

International Human Rights. I want to work for an NGO with an transnational scope. That's why Duke's JD/LLM in International and Comparative Law appeals to me so much. I feel like it'll really set me apart.

Generally, a relevant, relatively rare (for Americans) language skill will, as cav mentioned, do much more for you than a J.D. or LL.M. for international human rights work. Probably the most "in-demand" language skill currently is Arabic, maybe Urdu; if you're interested specifically in Africa, any widely-spoken African languages in your region(s)/countries of interest (and here French or Portuguese might also be helpful, if you're interested in working in Francophone or Lusophone Africa). Any other languages (e.g., German) are unlikely to be a significant boost. Aside from the language skill, a top MPP or MPA degree, or possibly even an MBA, would be a helpful credential to possess, and could help you break into the field.

If you feel you absolutely must break into this field from the angle of being a U.S. J.D., then the law schools that will give you a realistic shot at this kind of work are basically limited to Yale, NYU Root-Tilden-Kern, and Harvard, in that order. I don't think going to any other law school would give you a realistic shot. And, keep in mind, even from Yale, international human rights is a field that barely exists for lawyers, especially new graduates. These positions are extraordinarily rare, and extraordinarily sought after (probably more than half the class at Yale would love to do international human rights work if they were able to). You should consider what you would do in the not unlikely case you aren't able to secure an international human rights position out of law school. If you're international human rights or bust, you really shouldn't be going to law school at all - maaaybe, at most, Yale would be a defensible gamble. I wouldn't even recommend Harvard in that case.

Absolutely do not matriculate to W&L or Indy, or WUSTL, or even Duke. None of them will give you a realistic chance at securing the kind of position you want to secure.

[monroe8]

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I misunderstand the label "International Human Rights". I'm interested in working for a group like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. These groups have legal departments and job postings for lawyers, right? I have strong research and writing skills, so I think the best way I could contribute is in a legal capacity.

I speak Spanish, Russian and Italian. I know some French and Portuguese, but it's pretty hard for me to have a conversation in those languages. I'd like to work in Latin American.

I looked into getting a Masters early on in the process and decided it was too narrow. I have other interests and I felt like a JD had more applications. Maybe that was rash, but I'm definitely not "human rights or bust".

[QContinuum]

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I misunderstand the label "International Human Rights". I'm interested in working for a group like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. These groups have legal departments and job postings for lawyers, right? I have strong research and writing skills, so I think the best way I could contribute is in a legal capacity.

Sure, so see my post above re: Yale, NYU Root-Tilden-Kern, and Harvard being the only realistic law schools to attend. The demand for these positions from extremely well-qualified applicants is incredible and the number of positions is very low.

I looked into getting a Masters early on in the process and decided it was too narrow. I have other interests and I felt like a JD had more applications. Maybe that was rash, but I'm definitely not "human rights or bust".

So if you don't land a position with HRW/Amnesty/etc., what kind of legal work do you see yourself as happy doing?

[nixy]

I’m always a little curious about the insistence on HYS (or here YHNYU) for such jobs. On the one hand, yes - these are incredibly difficult jobs to get, and I don’t want to minimize that - the schools listed are absolutely the best bet in a vacuum. On the other hand, I feel like working international human rights law, more than many fields, depends on what qualifications and experiences you bring to law school almost as much as where you go. These are jobs where fit and committed dedication will absolutely matter, and where it’s not as simple as school pedigree.

In any case, LinkedIn stalking of people working at Amnesty International actually reveals people from - well, I was going to say a wide range of schools, but it would more accurate to say “still T14, but not just HYNYU.” And the person I know who actually does international human rights went to Berkeley (which I think remains a good choice for such work).

I hesitated to even go here because I didn’t want to make it sound like I think these jobs are easy to get. They’re not, at all. The OP does want to go to the best school they can - AND I agree that WUSTL, W&L, and Indy are not going to be great choices. (At the least I think being in NYC or maybe DC so they can do as many relevant internships as possible would help.) I just don’t think it’s quite as narrow as HYNYU (I think if someone has the chops for international human rights jobs, they could get those jobs from Duke as well. Unfortunately the OP has only a very small shot at Duke.)

[The Lsat Airbender]

I think there's a bit of a statistical bias where HYS, the RTK selection committee, etc. go out of their way to admit the kind of people who a priori have what it takes to do the fancy international-human-rights stuff. It's not unlike the high rate at which Stanford puts people into startups -- they're doing that on purpose, lol, it's not like there's something in the water there.

Nobody's looking at a resume and saying "oh you have a PhD in development economics and you're a native speaker of Swahili, but you went to Duke Law so we're gonna pass and take this Harvard kid instead."

[nixy]

I think there's a bit of a statistical bias where HYS, the RTK selection committee, etc. go out of their way to admit the kind of people who a priori have what it takes to do the fancy international-human-rights stuff. It's not unlike the high rate at which Stanford puts people into startups -- they're doing that on purpose, lol, it's not like there's something in the water there.

Nobody's looking at a resume and saying "oh you have a PhD in development economics and you're a native speaker of Swahili, but you went to Duke Law so we're gonna pass and take this Harvard kid instead."

Yeah, this is essentially what I was trying to get at.

[QContinuum]

I think there's a bit of a statistical bias where HYS, the RTK selection committee, etc. go out of their way to admit the kind of people who a priori have what it takes to do the fancy international-human-rights stuff. It's not unlike the high rate at which Stanford puts people into startups -- they're doing that on purpose, lol, it's not like there's something in the water there.

Nobody's looking at a resume and saying "oh you have a PhD in development economics and you're a native speaker of Swahili, but you went to Duke Law so we're gonna pass and take this Harvard kid instead."

Yeah, this is essentially what I was trying to get at.

Completely agree. Thing is, OP doesn't have the Ph.D. in development economics or the Swahili language skills, let alone both. They have an impressive resume - I'm not knocking them at all! - but they have a college degree and fluency in three European languages. So, in my view, they need YHNYU (RTK) to have a realistic shot. My advice would be very different if OP was fluent in Arabic, or Swahili, or [insert other relevant, "lesser spoken" (by U.S. natives) IHR language], and/or if OP had a top-notch, relevant graduate degree, and/or if OP has specific previous work experience.

(Also to the statistical bias point: that is absolutely true that these schools take people "primed to succeed" - yet at the same time, that means that selection by these schools (or lack thereof) also means something re: chances of success down the road, granting that there are always folks who prove to be the exceptions to the rule.)

(Second P.S. - I also agree that school pedigree alone won't suffice. You can't sleepwalk your way into IHR just by virtue of being a Harvard student, or even a Yale student. But, YHNYU (RTK) will give you the tools and connections you need to have a realistic chance at success - if you bust your rear end off to take advantage of those tools and connections - in a way that other T13s won't.)

[nixy]

Fair. For me it would depend on what OP’s professional experience is.