Chance me! [Please :) ] Forum

[jdist]

Hi! First time poster so be real, but gentle please! Somewhat non-traditional applicant... would love folks feedback on where I might stand.

"Experienced" applicant - graduated in 2012.
Finished from a top 20 undergrad in 3 years. Dual major: polisci & history. Overall GPA: 3.5 (Major GPA 3.9 if that matters)
LSAT: 154 (Took it last year and got 152. Went up, but not as much as I hoped)
"Softs" - Been working in politics/advocacy the last couple years. Presidential campaign in 2016, and now doing LGBTQ advocacy in DC helping fight back against trump admin.

Love my career and it could go in some interesting places w/o a JD, but I want to pivot in to a career in law based on what I've learned in the the advocacy/government/political spaces - and take that to the next level.

I know my scores are below the medians at many of the top schools - so would be interested to see where folks think I'm positioned/what's attainable/safe/reach/etc. Proud of what I've accomplished in politics/advocacy but not sure what any of that means.

Thanks TLS!!!

[totesTheGoat]

Retake. 3.5/154 doesn't get you anywhere that is worth going at the price you'll be paying. Softs won't move the needle, and although it sounds like you have a solid reason to get a JD, I don't think you'd be able to ever pay off your loans if you follow your planned path with your current score.

[jdist]

Retake. 3.5/154 doesn't get you anywhere that is worth going at the price you'll be paying. Softs won't move the needle, and although it sounds like you have a solid reason to get a JD, I don't think you'd be able to ever pay off your loans if you follow your planned path with your current score.

Thanks totesthegoat! I put this (3.5/154) all in to that magical mylsn.info calculator (Which is so helpful, it's almost to good to be true?) and it gives me medium chances at some schools b/t #27 and #50 -- like Iowa, Wisconsin, U Illinois, etc. Does that sound on target to you -- or, is it missing something?

My original goal was 160 - which seems to put some schools Top 25 in play. But, alas - haven't gotten to a 160 yet :/

[cavalier1138]

Retake. 3.5/154 doesn't get you anywhere that is worth going at the price you'll be paying. Softs won't move the needle, and although it sounds like you have a solid reason to get a JD, I don't think you'd be able to ever pay off your loans if you follow your planned path with your current score.

Thanks totesthegoat! I put this (3.5/154) all in to that magical mylsn.info calculator (Which is so helpful, it's almost to good to be true?) and it gives me medium chances at some schools b/t #27 and #50 -- like Iowa, Wisconsin, U Illinois, etc. Does that sound on target to you -- or, is it missing something?

My original goal was 160 - which seems to put some schools Top 25 in play. But, alas - haven't gotten to a 160 yet :/

The catch is money.

You might be able to swing admission to a school like UIUC, but you won't get a scholarship. That leaves you holding the bag on $200k+ in debt and without a job that can pay that off.

[jdist]

Retake. 3.5/154 doesn't get you anywhere that is worth going at the price you'll be paying. Softs won't move the needle, and although it sounds like you have a solid reason to get a JD, I don't think you'd be able to ever pay off your loans if you follow your planned path with your current score.

Thanks totesthegoat! I put this (3.5/154) all in to that magical mylsn.info calculator (Which is so helpful, it's almost to good to be true?) and it gives me medium chances at some schools b/t #27 and #50 -- like Iowa, Wisconsin, U Illinois, etc. Does that sound on target to you -- or, is it missing something?

My original goal was 160 - which seems to put some schools Top 25 in play. But, alas - haven't gotten to a 160 yet :/

The catch is money.

You might be able to swing admission to a school like UIUC, but you won't get a scholarship. That leaves you holding the bag on $200k+ in debt and without a job that can pay that off.

Biglaw that unattainable from a school like uiuc?

[cavalier1138]

Biglaw that unattainable from a school like uiuc?

Well, you never mentioned biglaw in your initial post, so that makes this an even easier question to answer. If you want biglaw, you should be aiming for a T13. If you're ok not getting biglaw (which is the most likely outcome everywhere that isn't the T13), then going to any T1 regional school where you want to work is a fine option, as long as it's for free.

To answer your specific question: UIUC places roughly 25% of its class in biglaw. So if you don't have a substantial scholarship, that's a 75% chance that you won't get a job that lets you pay off your debt.

Also, are you sure you want biglaw? Your initial post was all about your political/advocacy work. Not a whole lot of that going on in most big firms.

[totesTheGoat]

Biglaw that unattainable from a school like uiuc?

I wouldn't pay sticker for law school, even if I had a guaranteed biglaw job lined up after graduating. Law school isn't worth $200k out of pocket when you could just study for another 6 months or 1 year and get a substantial scholarship to a good school.

However, it's difficult to do value assessments when it's not clear what you want to do with your degree. Biglaw? retake until you can get into a T13 or high T1 school with a substantial scholarship (50% or more). PI? I know less about this area, but it's even more important that you rack up as little debt as possible, because PI doesn't pay all that well and relying on being eligible for PSLF in 15 years is idiotic.

[LSATWiz.com]

The major GPA and fact you graduated in 3 years do not really matter.

Your GPA is going to render you a splitter at the top schools - you're below the UGPA median so need to hit the LSAT median to get in. With these #'s, you're probably cut off from the tier one. There are 2 things in your posts that are also very relevant.

1.) You like your current job. Presumably, you do pretty well, and you're big on advocacy.
2.) Your primary goal would be big law.


There is a risk that by attending law school you will work in a job you do not like, and be unable to return to your pre-law job. From schools you'd get into with these numbers, that is a real risk.

Your odds of getting big law from even a top 25 would not be very high. You'd need to place towards the top of the class (think top 15% or so), and the competition at schools in that range won't be a cakewalk. Further, you are unlikely to get into a top 25 with these numbers.

The fact you want big law despite being a political advocate makes me think you're largely motivated by money, which is all fine and good. However, it's important to consider that there's a greater than 50-50 shot you won't be earning six-figures and have hundreds of thousands in debt coming from these schools.

I'd say even a 160 is probably insufficient here given your current situation and your goals. A 165+ will give you a much more realistic shot. If you studied significantly between takes and only went up 2 points, you did not study effectively. I know it sucks but the correct answer is to retake.

[jdist]

The major GPA and fact you graduated in 3 years do not really matter.

Your GPA is going to render you a splitter at the top schools - you're below the UGPA median so need to hit the LSAT median to get in. With these #'s, you're probably cut off from the tier one. There are 2 things in your posts that are also very relevant.

1.) You like your current job. Presumably, you do pretty well, and you're big on advocacy.
2.) Your primary goal would be big law.


There is a risk that by attending law school you will work in a job you do not like, and be unable to return to your pre-law job. From schools you'd get into with these numbers, that is a real risk.

Your odds of getting big law from even a top 25 would not be very high. You'd need to place towards the top of the class (think top 15% or so), and the competition at schools in that range won't be a cakewalk. Further, you are unlikely to get into a top 25 with these numbers.

The fact you want big law despite being a political advocate makes me think you're largely motivated by money, which is all fine and good. However, it's important to consider that there's a greater than 50-50 shot you won't be earning six-figures and have hundreds of thousands in debt coming from these schools.

I'd say even a 160 is probably insufficient here given your current situation and your goals. A 165+ will give you a much more realistic shot. If you studied significantly between takes and only went up 2 points, you did not study effectively. I know it sucks but the correct answer is to retake.

Okay, this is really, really helpful advice (So is everyone else's!) and you're insights are so spot on, I'm a little intimidated/impressed. Are you in my brain?

Anyways, yes - been on the advocacy/political scene for a while now - at the national level. I enjoy it, am good and it, and am fulfilled by the chance to advance equality and opportunity for folks . But looking down the road, I also want to level up. My thinking re: evil big-law (In progressive speak) is that: if I am going to invest $$$ (Both in terms of debt and opportunity cost of no salary for 3 years) in law school ---*and* big law is an option (Which I would work very hard to make it one - go big or go home) - it'd be very hard to leave so much money on the table (At least for the first few years, where there is so much to be repaid). The quick, high stakes, competitive nature of big-law, and getting to work with the "best of the best" also appeals to me - from what I have read so far / those I've spoken to in the field. I don't think, as an advocate, I'm turned off by having to work on M&A or other transactional work - more, I see those pieces as potentially exciting new ventures,which would develop hard marketable skills and strong networks (Though, I could be very off on my analyses - still early days!).

Another huge thanks for the analysis re: 160 versus 165. I was just talking to a friend earlier and said "obviously" I didn't study effectively :/. Part of it is probably getting back in the swing of standardized tests (Which I used to absolutely knock out of the park), and making time/space to focus on this, while balancing everything else that working professionals have going on in life, admittedly, not an uncommon problem . Sigh...

Sounds like need to aim for the LSAT median at the top schools to have a shot at all this... thanks again for the helpful/frank insights.

[jdist]

Biglaw that unattainable from a school like uiuc?

I wouldn't pay sticker for law school, even if I had a guaranteed biglaw job lined up after graduating. Law school isn't worth $200k out of pocket when you could just study for another 6 months or 1 year and get a substantial scholarship to a good school.

However, it's difficult to do value assessments when it's not clear what you want to do with your degree. Biglaw? retake until you can get into a T13 or high T1 school with a substantial scholarship (50% or more). PI? I know less about this area, but it's even more important that you rack up as little debt as possible, because PI doesn't pay all that well and relying on being eligible for PSLF in 15 years is idiotic.

Thank you!!! Since I am already doing advocacy/non-profit work (for the people!) - and am happy with it - I don't think it would make sense as a first job post JD, to do do advocacy (I'd just stay where I am for a few years) -- marginal benefit not exceeding marginal cost - to make my econ101 prof proud.

Obviously, JD PI is more specialized/technical than what I am doing now - but I don't think it would be that much more fulfilling... Especially since the pay (Based off averages I've read about) is only marginally higher than I am making now. Instead, I'd want to do the biglaw thing for a few years - enter a new space, build a new high-powered network, "crush it," pay off the debt, and then re-evaluate if a move to government/PI is possible/makes sense.

Adding the caveat of course that I'm not an expert yet-- but, those are my thoughts after some self-directed research & talking to friends/colleagues in those spaces...

[Npret]

Biglaw that unattainable from a school like uiuc?

I wouldn't pay sticker for law school, even if I had a guaranteed biglaw job lined up after graduating. Law school isn't worth $200k out of pocket when you could just study for another 6 months or 1 year and get a substantial scholarship to a good school.

However, it's difficult to do value assessments when it's not clear what you want to do with your degree. Biglaw? retake until you can get into a T13 or high T1 school with a substantial scholarship (50% or more). PI? I know less about this area, but it's even more important that you rack up as little debt as possible, because PI doesn't pay all that well and relying on being eligible for PSLF in 15 years is idiotic.

Thank you!!! Since I am already doing advocacy/non-profit work (for the people!) - and am happy with it - I don't think it would make sense as a first job post JD, to do do advocacy (I'd just stay where I am for a few years) -- marginal benefit not exceeding marginal cost - to make my econ101 prof proud.

Obviously, JD PI is more specialized/technical than what I am doing now - but I don't think it would be that much more fulfilling... Especially since the pay (Based off averages I've read about) is only marginally higher than I am making now. Instead, I'd want to do the biglaw thing for a few years - enter a new space, build a new high-powered network, "crush it," pay off the debt, and then re-evaluate if a move to government/PI is possible/makes sense.

Adding the caveat of course that I'm not an expert yet-- but, those are my thoughts after some self-directed research & talking to friends/colleagues in those spaces...

What high powered network are you planning on building? Why do you need a second one?

I’m still not clear what biglaw does for you except you will make money to pay off your debt. From your buzzword descriptions, I’m not convinced you have any idea what biglaw will do for you.

You need to crush the LSAT to have a chance at a law school that will get you big law.

[cavalier1138]

Biglaw that unattainable from a school like uiuc?

I wouldn't pay sticker for law school, even if I had a guaranteed biglaw job lined up after graduating. Law school isn't worth $200k out of pocket when you could just study for another 6 months or 1 year and get a substantial scholarship to a good school.

However, it's difficult to do value assessments when it's not clear what you want to do with your degree. Biglaw? retake until you can get into a T13 or high T1 school with a substantial scholarship (50% or more). PI? I know less about this area, but it's even more important that you rack up as little debt as possible, because PI doesn't pay all that well and relying on being eligible for PSLF in 15 years is idiotic.

Thank you!!! Since I am already doing advocacy/non-profit work (for the people!) - and am happy with it - I don't think it would make sense as a first job post JD, to do do advocacy (I'd just stay where I am for a few years) -- marginal benefit not exceeding marginal cost - to make my econ101 prof proud.

Obviously, JD PI is more specialized/technical than what I am doing now - but I don't think it would be that much more fulfilling... Especially since the pay (Based off averages I've read about) is only marginally higher than I am making now. Instead, I'd want to do the biglaw thing for a few years - enter a new space, build a new high-powered network, "crush it," pay off the debt, and then re-evaluate if a move to government/PI is possible/makes sense.

Adding the caveat of course that I'm not an expert yet-- but, those are my thoughts after some self-directed research & talking to friends/colleagues in those spaces...

What high powered network are you planning on building? Why do you need a second one?

I’m still not clear what biglaw does for you except you will make money to pay off your debt. From your buzzword descriptions, I’m not convinced you have any idea what biglaw will do for you.

You need to crush the LSAT to have a chance at a law school that will get you big law.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the point of going to biglaw is based on that description. If it's just about getting money, that's fine, but you don't build a "high-powered network" (whatever that may be) by being an associate at a large firm for a few years.

[totesTheGoat]

Instead, I'd want to do the biglaw thing for a few years - enter a new space, build a new high-powered network, "crush it," pay off the debt, and then re-evaluate if a move to government/PI is possible/makes sense.

Biglaw doesn't really work like that. More likely, you would spend 60+ hours per week learning a specialty, getting to know a handful of partners by having them rip your work product apart unmercifully, and living with a complete lack of work/life balance. Law is a lot less glamorous than you think. Also, transitioning from biglaw to PI isn't impossible, but there's not exactly a purpose-built path to do so. If PI is your goal, plan law school around PI. If biglaw is your goal, plan law school around biglaw.

However, I think you need to also consider the alternative, which is that you go to law school, rack up a significant debt, and don't have a biglaw option available to you to "crush it" and pay off debt. What happens if the highest salary law job you can get is $65k a year, and you have $200k in student loan debt?

I'm not saying that the worst case is going to happen, but that you should plan for doing law school in a way that reduces the financial devastation if you can't get biglaw. That means 1) not paying sticker for law school; and 2) going to a school that gives you the best chance of achieving biglaw.

[LSATWiz.com]

The major GPA and fact you graduated in 3 years do not really matter.

Your GPA is going to render you a splitter at the top schools - you're below the UGPA median so need to hit the LSAT median to get in. With these #'s, you're probably cut off from the tier one. There are 2 things in your posts that are also very relevant.

1.) You like your current job. Presumably, you do pretty well, and you're big on advocacy.
2.) Your primary goal would be big law.


There is a risk that by attending law school you will work in a job you do not like, and be unable to return to your pre-law job. From schools you'd get into with these numbers, that is a real risk.

Your odds of getting big law from even a top 25 would not be very high. You'd need to place towards the top of the class (think top 15% or so), and the competition at schools in that range won't be a cakewalk. Further, you are unlikely to get into a top 25 with these numbers.

The fact you want big law despite being a political advocate makes me think you're largely motivated by money, which is all fine and good. However, it's important to consider that there's a greater than 50-50 shot you won't be earning six-figures and have hundreds of thousands in debt coming from these schools.

I'd say even a 160 is probably insufficient here given your current situation and your goals. A 165+ will give you a much more realistic shot. If you studied significantly between takes and only went up 2 points, you did not study effectively. I know it sucks but the correct answer is to retake.

Okay, this is really, really helpful advice (So is everyone else's!) and you're insights are so spot on, I'm a little intimidated/impressed. Are you in my brain?

Anyways, yes - been on the advocacy/political scene for a while now - at the national level. I enjoy it, am good and it, and am fulfilled by the chance to advance equality and opportunity for folks . But looking down the road, I also want to level up. My thinking re: evil big-law (In progressive speak) is that: if I am going to invest $$$ (Both in terms of debt and opportunity cost of no salary for 3 years) in law school ---*and* big law is an option (Which I would work very hard to make it one - go big or go home) - it'd be very hard to leave so much money on the table (At least for the first few years, where there is so much to be repaid). The quick, high stakes, competitive nature of big-law, and getting to work with the "best of the best" also appeals to me - from what I have read so far / those I've spoken to in the field. I don't think, as an advocate, I'm turned off by having to work on M&A or other transactional work - more, I see those pieces as potentially exciting new ventures,which would develop hard marketable skills and strong networks (Though, I could be very off on my analyses - still early days!).

Another huge thanks for the analysis re: 160 versus 165. I was just talking to a friend earlier and said "obviously" I didn't study effectively :/. Part of it is probably getting back in the swing of standardized tests (Which I used to absolutely knock out of the park), and making time/space to focus on this, while balancing everything else that working professionals have going on in life, admittedly, not an uncommon problem . Sigh...

Sounds like need to aim for the LSAT median at the top schools to have a shot at all this... thanks again for the helpful/frank insights.

While I'd like to consider myself insightful, there was an obvious disconnect between your passions and goals, which made me believe you were financially focused. There's nothing wrong with this. Life costs money, and I'd argue that maximizing earnings to provide for loved ones is just as noble as working in public interest.

You write well and are rational, which leads me to believe you should be able to do significantly better on the LSAT. In my experience, people who max out at around your current score have a lesser grasp of the English language and/or unable to draw conclusions based on objective data. It is definitely hard to make time to study when you're working full time, but you really just need one hour a day (with 3 on the weekends) over an extended timeframe to do well.

I'd be curious to know your income now. If you're earning over $60k, I'd seriously advise against matriculating with anything less than the mid-160's, and even then maybe only consider a T-14. If the goal is to earn say 20-30k more a year, there are add'l things you could probably do that won't require you to leave law school. For example, a friend of mine is a kettlebell instructor in their free time and subsidizes their income as a teacher by doing that.