170 / 2.91 Forum

[kingfisher23]

Greetings all.

My stats, as mentioned above, are LSAT of 170 and cumulative undergrad GPA at 2.91. Low undergrad GPA is due entirely to poor grades my senior year following the sudden death of my mother's parents and my father. Additionally, I have 4 years of work experience (not law related) with consistent promotion and a trend of merit-based increases in responsibility

UNC is my top choice due to various family connections and a history with the school. I'm also applying to UCLA, Florida, UPenn, NYU, and Duke. Those five sent me unsolicited fee waivers based on my CAS.

Where can I reasonably expect an offer of admission? I'm getting lots of recruitment from lower T1 schools but I honestly don't want to settle. UNC probably wouldn't be on my list if it weren't for the non-academic factors.

Thank you in advance for any insight.

[cavalier1138]

What are your career goals, and where do you want to practice? Your list is all over the place, and without knowing that information, it's hard to figure out why.

There isn't a lot of information for a splitter in your ranges on MyLSN. But from the list you gave, your GPA will keep you out almost everywhere except UNC and maybe Florida. You always have outside chances at the others, but realistically, a sub-3.0 GPA is going to be an application killer for most top-tier schools, regardless of the high LSAT.

Also, it's probably not that relevant, but when you talk about family connections to UNC, are you talking specifically about the law school? If not, you should be aware that law schools are separate entities from the undergraduate institution, so any experience or connection to UNC as an undergrad should not affect your decision to apply to or attend their law school.

[kingfisher23]

cavalier, thanks for the response. Disheartening, but not entirely unexpected. Prior to spring of junior year, I was a 3.5+ student. The drop has added considerable insult to injury.

In terms of career goals, my initial intent was BigLaw but my GPA drop forced me to reconsider. Most of my applications focused on intent to pursue recreation/business law (related to work experience and undergrad degree) but my career possibilities are out-of-focus at the moment unfortunately.

My application list was developed based on local schools (UNC, Duke) and schools that have offered fee waivers following my December LSAT scores, limited to Top 30.

In answer to your last point, I have family connections to the university and the community, as well as local ties. I'm inclined to avoid any more specific details on the off chance that UNC adcomm is perusing and I haven't managed to already out myself.

[floatie]

Your LSAT might get you into a T1 off the waitlist, but I'm not sure if your LSAT is high enough to overcome your GPA for T14s. If you're completely set on BigLaw, you do have the option of transferring - go to the best T1 you can get into, work your butt off to stay in the top 10-15%, and see if you can transfer into T14. Note that this path is not guaranteed at all, and assume that the most likely outcome is staying at the T1 all 3 years.

[Future Ex-Engineer]

Don't waste the $100 on Stanford. No chance you get in with a 2.91

[kingfisher23]

Prime example of why one should avoid writing in the middle of a coast-to-coast redeye. Not sure why I listed Stanford as my reach school. I will not be submitting an application to any of the top 5.

Does the isolated grade (versus a pattern of mediocre grades) drop not really matter? And what about solid work experience? These are things I've heard can serve to mitigate a low GPA, especially when an applicant has been out of Scholl for a while. But from the responses here, it would appear that those factors don't play as big a role as I would've hoped.

And finally, given my aspirations for some sort of a big firm placement or equivalent, I guess I should be strongly considering delaying into next cycle and retaking the LSAT?

[poptart123]

You might try throwing an application to WUSTL as well. I've heard of them giving some money to students with similar stats as you.

[cavalier1138]

You might try throwing an application to WUSTL as well. I've heard of them giving some money to students with similar stats as you.

This is a good option. WashU has historically favored splitters with high enough LSATs.

[KunAgnis]

WashU is a good place to start, and pretty much sets a baseline for where you should accept. You could try UVA/NU, as both are pretty splitter-friendly in the T14. I honestly think you have a shot at NU if you retake and get a 171+, since you have strong work experience. Applying early next cycle would help too. Furthermore, the NU acceptance would help you negotiate scholarships with other schools.

In terms of this cycle, though, you're pretty much restricted to somewhere in the T20 to T30 range. UCLA strongly dislikes splitters and your LSAT isn't high enough to overcome it. UT also dislikes splitters, period. You might get USC; after that, you should pretty much look at where you want to work - if you like NC, Emory might be an option since they can place in the Southeast.

TL;DR: Try WashU/Emory. You probably won't get Duke.

[AJordan]

Prime example of why one should avoid writing in the middle of a coast-to-coast redeye. Not sure why I listed Stanford as my reach school. I will not be submitting an application to any of the top 5.

Does the isolated grade (versus a pattern of mediocre grades) drop not really matter? And what about solid work experience? These are things I've heard can serve to mitigate a low GPA, especially when an applicant has been out of Scholl for a while. But from the responses here, it would appear that those factors don't play as big a role as I would've hoped.

And finally, given my aspirations for some sort of a big firm placement or equivalent, I guess I should be strongly considering delaying into next cycle and retaking the LSAT?

That stuff all matters, yeah, and you should certainly be submitting an addendum. You still gotta look at the numbers and see just how many people have been admitted with below a 3.0. It isn't many. Also, it's not like you were a 4.0 prior. Your previous is still pretty low for T14 schools as it is. So there's that.

Your LSAT/GPA will be given a vast majority of the weight. They will be used by schools to give you an index number. If you're not an auto reject (some schools have GPA floors they just don't admit below barring miracles) then your app will be at least reviewed. If you then have a perfect app you'll be put into a pile where they will take you if they require more folks above a certain number to boost their LSAT 75th/median/whatever. So you'll likely be waitlisted until very late in the cycle.

It's really a numbers game in the end. Let's say you only have a 5% chance to get into each school 5-14. In that scenario you're like 40% to get into one of them. If I were you I'd make my app as perfect as possible and drop an app at every T14 (minus HYS Cornell and Berkeley) and anywhere 15-30 that I could see myself attending. You'll get a few bites in that second category and maybe get lucky at one of the others.

If you had a 3.3 in your situation things would be very different. As it is you really should be looking at places like WUSTL and/or other schools in markets where you want to practice.

[cavalier1138]

Let's say you only have a 5% chance to get into each school 5-14. In that scenario you're like 40% to get into one of them.

I'm primarily in law school to avoid having to ever do real math again, but that doesn't look right...

[Future Ex-Engineer]

It's really a numbers game in the end. Let's say you only have a 5% chance to get into each school 5-14. In that scenario you're like 40% to get into one of them. If I were you I'd make my app as perfect as possible and drop an app at every T14 (minus HYS Cornell and Berkeley) and anywhere 15-30 that I could see myself attending. You'll get a few bites in that second category and maybe get lucky at one of the others.

At risk of sounding rude, it's very obvious why you're going to law school. That is not remotely close to how statistics work. Think about it this way - if you had 5 schools where each had a 20% chance of getting in, by your logic you'd be guaranteed a spot at one of them. That is unequivocally false. You would simply have a 20% chance of getting into each one. I could work out the probability of getting into 1,2,3,4, or all 5, but I'm at work and don't feel like pulling out my calculator. It's basically a binomial distribution. Please don't spread misinformation like that to people who don't know any better.

[AJordan]

It's really a numbers game in the end. Let's say you only have a 5% chance to get into each school 5-14. In that scenario you're like 40% to get into one of them. If I were you I'd make my app as perfect as possible and drop an app at every T14 (minus HYS Cornell and Berkeley) and anywhere 15-30 that I could see myself attending. You'll get a few bites in that second category and maybe get lucky at one of the others.

At risk of sounding rude, it's very obvious why you're going to law school. That is not remotely close to how statistics work. Think about it this way - if you had 5 schools where each had a 20% chance of getting in, by your logic you'd be guaranteed a spot at one of them. That is unequivocally false. You would simply have a 20% chance of getting into each one. I could work out the probability of getting into 1,2,3,4, or all 5, but I'm at work and don't feel like pulling out my calculator. It's basically a binomial distribution. Please don't spread misinformation like that to people who don't know any better.

Point taken. I didn't use my calculator either. It's more like 30% than 40. I was overly optimistic. OP can use http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx for reference yes?

[kingfisher23]

WashU is a good place to start, and pretty much sets a baseline for where you should accept. You could try UVA/NU, as both are pretty splitter-friendly in the T14. I honestly think you have a shot at NU if you retake and get a 171+, since you have strong work experience. Applying early next cycle would help too. Furthermore, the NU acceptance would help you negotiate scholarships with other schools.

In terms of this cycle, though, you're pretty much restricted to somewhere in the T20 to T30 range. UCLA strongly dislikes splitters and your LSAT isn't high enough to overcome it. UT also dislikes splitters, period. You might get USC; after that, you should pretty much look at where you want to work - if you like NC, Emory might be an option since they can place in the Southeast.

TL;DR: Try WashU/Emory. You probably won't get Duke.

Thanks for your insight. I am an NC resident so I'm definitely interested in schools here. I hadn't considered Emory yet.

As far as LSAT goes, I feel very confident that I could hit 175+ on a retake. I really do not want to delay a cycle but that might be the most pragmatic direction at this point.

[KunAgnis]

WashU is a good place to start, and pretty much sets a baseline for where you should accept. You could try UVA/NU, as both are pretty splitter-friendly in the T14. I honestly think you have a shot at NU if you retake and get a 171+, since you have strong work experience. Applying early next cycle would help too. Furthermore, the NU acceptance would help you negotiate scholarships with other schools.

In terms of this cycle, though, you're pretty much restricted to somewhere in the T20 to T30 range. UCLA strongly dislikes splitters and your LSAT isn't high enough to overcome it. UT also dislikes splitters, period. You might get USC; after that, you should pretty much look at where you want to work - if you like NC, Emory might be an option since they can place in the Southeast.

TL;DR: Try WashU/Emory. You probably won't get Duke.

Thanks for your insight. I am an NC resident so I'm definitely interested in schools here. I hadn't considered Emory yet.

As far as LSAT goes, I feel very confident that I could hit 175+ on a retake. I really do not want to delay a cycle but that might be the most pragmatic direction at this point.

The retake would certainly help reduce tuition costs if it goes as planned. It may help broaden your reach as well. Good luck!