175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY Forum

[InTheInterstice]

Disclaimer: I have run my numbers through lsn but am curious about the qualitative components of my application. Also, I'm quite ignorant overall about the law school process, so anyone please feel free to correct any misgivings/misconceptions I may have!

So here's my situation: I have a 175 LSAT, 3.9 Ugrad LSAC GPA from HYPSM in applied math/economics, projected 3.85-3.9 Grad GPA from HYPSM in an engineering field with concentration in financial mathematics.
I'm not sure whether I count as a K-JD, since I will have my M.S. degree before applying to law, but insofar as K-JD refers to someone with 0 work experience, I'm guilty as charged.

I'm mostly worried about my ECs and other soft factors because I've heard law schools lump similar candidates, and my (non-existent) work experience would look incredibly weak compared to other Master's students (who typically have at least a year or two of experience before they applied to the M.S. degree in the first place). I have a few small leadership roles in student organizations, wrote an honors thesis, and interned over the summer at investment banks (think GS/JPM/MS) and at start-ups abroad. I also used to play a sport at the national level but stopped due to injury.

I'd really appreciate if anyone could offer their thoughts on my chances next cycle. I'm only applying to HYS (and maybe Columbia—do they offer merit aid?) at this time, primarily because I feel that the associated cost of attending any law school is so high that I should only attend if it's my dream school; in other words, if I didn't get into one of these 3 or 4 schools, I feel like I'd be better off falling back on my M.S. and doing investment banking for a few years to rack up work experience before trying for JD/MBA later.

Edit: tldr, here's a summary:
UGrad: 3.9 HYPSM
M.S.: 3.85 HYPSM
LSAT: 175 (should I retake? honestly hardly studied and didn't take it seriously enough...)
Gender: F
URM: No
Softs: summer internships at top IB and significant internship work experience abroad

[cavalier1138]

No need to retake the LSAT. The only thing that will keep you out of HYS (and really, just YS) is your lack of work experience. That doesn't mean you're definitely not getting in, but it's the only weak point in your application. However, there are two thoughts I have after reading your entire post:

1. Apply more broadly. You cited the cost of law school as the primary reason you wouldn't apply outside HYS. Your numbers will get you a full scholarship at at least one of CCN, and certainly at any of the lower T14. Since scholarship calculations are done a little differently at HYS, you should at the very least be applying to CCN to give yourself the option (and some lower T14 to give yourself some negotiating power). You didn't mention your specific career goals, but unless you're going for a unicorn job or academia, there is rarely a good reason to attend HYS at sticker over CCN with a full scholarship.

2. Don't apply this cycle. You'd be applying late, and that just decreases your chances of admission and scholarship across the board. Get your things together and apply at the beginning of next cycle, which has the added benefit of giving you at least a little work experience.

[Clemenceau]

Are you absolutely positive that you want to be a lawyer, and do you know what kind of lawyer you'd like to be?

[poptart123]

Most likely in at H unless there is a skeleton in you're closet.

Oh my God... What planet are you from?

[blackmamba8]

OP you'll be lucky to get into Georgetown

[GoBucks6612]

Enjoy HYS haha. Congrats on those numbers!

[dabigchina]

go be a banker and enjoy your money

[InTheInterstice]

No need to retake the LSAT. The only thing that will keep you out of HYS (and really, just YS) is your lack of work experience. That doesn't mean you're definitely not getting in, but it's the only weak point in your application. However, there are two thoughts I have after reading your entire post:

1. Apply more broadly. You cited the cost of law school as the primary reason you wouldn't apply outside HYS. Your numbers will get you a full scholarship at at least one of CCN, and certainly at any of the lower T14. Since scholarship calculations are done a little differently at HYS, you should at the very least be applying to CCN to give yourself the option (and some lower T14 to give yourself some negotiating power). You didn't mention your specific career goals, but unless you're going for a unicorn job or academia, there is rarely a good reason to attend HYS at sticker over CCN with a full scholarship.

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?

[CR7]

Can you discuss your approach to the Lsat? 175 is amazing for hardly studying and not taking it seriously

[InTheInterstice]

Apply next cycle with a year of work experience and enjoy HYS. Recommending next cycle since it is fairly late now and you do not want to sell yourself short. Agree with the comment above about money though.

Sorry I realize I wasn't super clear but I won't have a year of work experience by next cycle since I'm finishing out my M.S. I'd really like to not take an additional year off just to get that extra year of WE for law school, since at that point I might as well have done 2 years in finance and just gone for the JD/MBA. Unless you think it's absolutely imperative that I have a year of WE before applying?

Also is the bit about money true even if I'm aiming for unicorn jobs? How big are the differences between HYS versus CCN for recruiting at top law firms?

[InTheInterstice]

Can you discuss your approach to the Lsat? 175 is amazing for hardly studying and not taking it seriously

I've just always been a lucky test-taker, since SATs in HS.. Sorry I don't think I'm qualified to be more helpful.

[InTheInterstice]

Most likely in at H unless there is a skeleton in you're closet.

Oh my God... What planet are you from?

Why H and not YS? I saw this reflected in lsn as well and was wondering why this is the case? In what ways do YS and H evaluate candidates differently? I'm asking mostly because I'm not the hugest fan of the HLS set-up, the style and size of the classes in particular.

Not sure what you mean by the last bit? Sorry if my questions are rather naive..

[Colonel_funkadunk]

blatant trolling

[blackmamba8]

blatant trolling

[Hikikomorist]

blatant trolling

Either way, it's worth it for inspiration value. It's nice to be reminded of the good parts of humanity.

[InTheInterstice]

blatant trolling

Except I'm not trolling.. What part of this makes it seem like I'm trolling? Why would I take the time to write these posts if I wasn't genuine about the responses I'm getting? Again, I'm sorry if any part of my wording of posts sounds ignorant, facetious, or what-else-have-you, but I promise I'm not a troll, just someone trying to learn more about the law school process and where I stack up.

[KunAgnis]

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?

I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially Becoming a Supreme Court Justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

[cavalier1138]

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?

I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

This.

Your goals are easily attainable from CCN, and you'll save buckets of money.

[A. Nony Mouse]

blatant trolling

Either way, it's worth it for inspiration value. It's nice to be reminded of the good parts of humanity.

don't drag your shtick into the on-topics.

[InTheInterstice]

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?

I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

Honestly I really don't understand why people think I'm a troll? But thank you for the clarification. I think my conflict then is wanting to keep my options open in terms of working securities litigation on the government side, which I'm assuming would need the HYS credentials?

[Colonel_funkadunk]

blatant trolling

Except I'm not trolling.. What part of this makes it seem like I'm trolling? Why would I take the time to write these posts if I wasn't genuine about the responses I'm getting? Again, I'm sorry if any part of my wording of posts sounds ignorant, facetious, or what-else-have-you, but I promise I'm not a troll, just someone trying to learn more about the law school process and where I stack up.

fair. you're in better position than most on these boards is where you stack up

[A. Nony Mouse]

People think you're a troll (not saying I agree, mind you) because you have excellent qualifications and as good a shot at HYS as anyone, so to ask "what are my chances??" comes off as disingenuous (again, not saying you are; just that that's why people are reacting that way).

And no, IMO you don't need HYS to do securities litigation for the government - you'll need good credentials, sure, but not literally only HYS. The feds hire from a pretty wide range of schools, and even where they do get caught up in pedigree, I don't think it's limited to HYS and almost any of the T14 will get you there for prestige, especially T6 if you're worried. More important will be the grades you get and pertinent experience (I think the SEC has an honors program, which hires entry-level, usually out of their summer program - school may matter but grades and dedication to the mission will matter equally to get one of those gigs; or you'd work in a firm and lateral, in which case your experience is *really* going to be key. I'm not a securities guru at all but I think most T14s can get you to a firm where you'd get pertinent work).

[aaronbursar]

I'm only applying to HYS (and maybe Columbia—do they offer merit aid?) at this time, primarily because I feel that the associated cost of attending any law school is so high that I should only attend if it's my dream school

They do offer merit aid. With your background I would have my eyes set on a Hamilton from Columbia, which would ameliorate any worries about tuition.

[InTheInterstice]

blatant trolling

Except I'm not trolling.. What part of this makes it seem like I'm trolling? Why would I take the time to write these posts if I wasn't genuine about the responses I'm getting? Again, I'm sorry if any part of my wording of posts sounds ignorant, facetious, or what-else-have-you, but I promise I'm not a troll, just someone trying to learn more about the law school process and where I stack up.

fair. you're in better position than most on these boards is where you stack up

Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it.

[InTheInterstice]

People think you're a troll (not saying I agree, mind you) because you have excellent qualifications and as good a shot at HYS as anyone, so to ask "what are my chances??" comes off as disingenuous (again, not saying you are; just that that's why people are reacting that way).

And no, IMO you don't need HYS to do securities litigation for the government - you'll need good credentials, sure, but not literally only HYS. The feds hire from a pretty wide range of schools, and even where they do get caught up in pedigree, I don't think it's limited to HYS and almost any of the T14 will get you there for prestige, especially T6 if you're worried. More important will be the grades you get and pertinent experience (I think the SEC has an honors program, which hires entry-level, usually out of their summer program - school may matter but grades and dedication to the mission will matter equally to get one of those gigs; or you'd work in a firm and lateral, in which case your experience is *really* going to be key. I'm not a securities guru at all but I think most T14s can get you to a firm where you'd get pertinent work).

Oh, I see, thank you for explaining. I think I'm mostly asking about chances because of my below average softs.

Thanks for the feedback on that—I'll definitely consider applying to the T6 instead of limiting myself to T3, although my concern in terms of prestige is that I know if I were to do IB for 2 years after my M.S. I would basically be guaranteed into a top MBA program (the firm I have FT from sends basically everyone who wants an MBA to HBS/GSB) and I've heard it's easy to leverage an MBA into a joint MBA/JD at the same institution, so there's that to consider as well.