Is the price for Ivy Leagues worth it? Forum

[ckingfisher]

Greetings folks. I just wanted to give a descriptive background of myself before I address the above question. I have been a software engineer for the past two years, and have four years of work experience, having done a co-op computer science program at UWaterloo, in which I graduated with a 3.92/4 GPA.

In the past, I have worked as a back-end developer for a small software shop, a front-end developer for an electrical company called Acaltel-Lucent, and an embedded systems engineer for the renowned defense company Lockheed Martin. Currently, I am a kernel developer for Blackberry in San Francisco.

I finished the LSAT in the beginning of June and ended off with a 169 with a lot of preparation.

With this score, my GPA, and my work experience, I have a shot at essentially every school except Harvard and UChicago.

That said, my goal is to become a patent attorney for a large firm. I currently make a substantial amount of money in California and do not want to work in a small firm. However, if I stay here, I will never be able to afford a house, nor live the independent life I want to (i.e., away from Cali).

However, cost is an issue (not that I do not have the money to pay for it, of course). I'm sure anyone with common sense would, in fact, advise me to stay away from expensive schools.

I have always wanted to live in Boston (in fact, my aunt lives there so I don't have any residence fees), and so was considering Boston University, though, with my grades, some advise me to go to Columbia, which places the most amount of students in large firms (i.e., a $160,000 pay first-year, which is actually what I make now-- it's sort of the ceiling in software).

What do you folks think? Should I consider a $350,000 investment in Columbia or NYU, or a $150,000 investment in BostonU or Boston College?

[goldenbear2020]

Neither - with your numbers, you can get a full tuition scholarship to a school better than BU/BC but below Columbia.

Also, first-year pay is now $180k plus bonus.

[dabigchina]

You can get a pretty good scholarship with those numbers from the lower T14. I would probably go with that.

[ckingfisher]

Neither - with your numbers, you can get a full tuition scholarship to a school better than BU/BC but below Columbia.

Also, first-year pay is now $180k plus bonus.

How is the pay for IP litigation with bonuses now, though? I guess that 180 figure is for fields like securities and finance law.

[lymenheimer]

Neither - with your numbers, you can get a full tuition scholarship to a school better than BU/BC but below Columbia.

Also, first-year pay is now $180k plus bonus.

How is the pay for IP litigation with bonuses now, though? I guess that 180 figure is for fields like securities and finance law.

Uhhhhh...

[ckingfisher]

Neither - with your numbers, you can get a full tuition scholarship to a school better than BU/BC but below Columbia.

Also, first-year pay is now $180k plus bonus.

How is the pay for IP litigation with bonuses now, though? I guess that 180 figure is for fields like securities and finance law.

Uhhhhh...

Hm ... so it's not known?

[curry1]

Neither - with your numbers, you can get a full tuition scholarship to a school better than BU/BC but below Columbia.

Also, first-year pay is now $180k plus bonus.

How is the pay for IP litigation with bonuses now, though? I guess that 180 figure is for fields like securities and finance law.

Uhhhhh...

Hm ... so it's not known?

Lots of prominent firms have strong IP practices and pay the market rate (which is 180 base + bonus) and scales rapidly (making 300 all in as a mid-level and then ~400 as a senior). Assuming you last. See http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx
http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx

W/R/T your admissions chances, you in fact have very good odds at Chicago, but quite poor at Columbia, Harvard, Yale and Stanford. See http://mylsn.info/rwnaof/

[guynourmin]

Neither - with your numbers, you can get a full tuition scholarship to a school better than BU/BC but below Columbia.

Also, first-year pay is now $180k plus bonus.

How is the pay for IP litigation with bonuses now, though? I guess that 180 figure is for fields like securities and finance law.

Uhhhhh...

Hm ... so it's not known?

No...you were just told what it is. Market-paying law firms pay all associates market rate irrespective of their area(s) of concentration. Someone doing IP lit at a big firm is going to make the same as everyone else. No one is getting paid anything more or less.

[Nebby]

What do you folks think? Should I consider a $350,000 investment in Columbia or NYU, or a $150,000 investment in BostonU or Boston College?

Go to a lower-ranked T-14 (Georgetown, U-Michigan, Duke, Berkeley, Northwestern, Cornell with a scholarship and you should come out with 150k or less in debt.

[ckingfisher]

What do you folks think? Should I consider a $350,000 investment in Columbia or NYU, or a $150,000 investment in BostonU or Boston College?

Go to a lower-ranked T-14 (Georgetown, U-Michigan, Duke, Berkeley, Northwestern, Cornell with a scholarship and you should come out with 150k or less in debt.

However, I would like to live in Boston, so I feel Boston College would be best for me.

[pancakes3]

What do you folks think? Should I consider a $350,000 investment in Columbia or NYU, or a $150,000 investment in BostonU or Boston College?

Go to a lower-ranked T-14 (Georgetown, U-Michigan, Duke, Berkeley, Northwestern, Cornell with a scholarship and you should come out with 150k or less in debt.

However, I would like to live in Boston, so I feel Boston College would be best for me.

Your feelings are wrong. The employment drop-off past the T-14 is drastic. Sorry.

See: lstscorereports.com/schools/

[ckingfisher]

What do you folks think? Should I consider a $350,000 investment in Columbia or NYU, or a $150,000 investment in BostonU or Boston College?

Go to a lower-ranked T-14 (Georgetown, U-Michigan, Duke, Berkeley, Northwestern, Cornell with a scholarship and you should come out with 150k or less in debt.

However, I would like to live in Boston, so I feel Boston College would be best for me.

Your feelings are wrong. The employment drop-off past the T-14 is drastic. Sorry.

See: lstscorereports.com/schools/

I don't see what's so "drastic." What types of metrics are you talking about?

[pancakes3]

What do you folks think? Should I consider a $350,000 investment in Columbia or NYU, or a $150,000 investment in BostonU or Boston College?

Go to a lower-ranked T-14 (Georgetown, U-Michigan, Duke, Berkeley, Northwestern, Cornell with a scholarship and you should come out with 150k or less in debt.

However, I would like to live in Boston, so I feel Boston College would be best for me.

Your feelings are wrong. The employment drop-off past the T-14 is drastic. Sorry.

See: lstscorereports.com/schools/

I don't see what's so "drastic." What types of metrics are you talking about?

Cornell: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cornell/jobs/
vs
BU
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/bu/jobs/
vs
BC
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/bc/jobs/

You're looking at a ~50% chance of working at a market-paying firm vs. ~25% at BC or BU.

Margin of error +/- in fed clerkships numbers (people with the grades to go to biglaw but choosing to clerk instead), and firms under 500 people who also pay market, or below market but high enough to justify debt.

[ckingfisher]

Cornel - 63%

BC - 38%

BU - 34%

I do not want to sound delusional or arrogant in the slightest - and feel free to put me in my place if you feel I am wrong - but I do not think I am just an "average" student. I graduated summa cum laude and have worked at companies like Blackberry and Lockheed Martin. Thus, realistically, I feel as though my chances are not just around 25% to get into a large firm.

[Clemenceau]

Cornel - 63%

BC - 38%

BU - 34%

I do not want to sound delusional or arrogant in the slightest - and feel free to put me in my place if you feel I am wrong - but I do not think I am just an "average" student. I graduated summa cum laude and have worked at companies like Blackberry and Lockheed Martin. Thus, realistically, I feel as though my chances are not just around 25% to get into a large firm.

Your chances are probably a bit higher than that due to your technical background. But the reality is that, for the most part, your law school and your 1L grades will determine if you get a big firm job. The fact that you were a good college student and had some nice jobs thereafter is well and good, but largely irrelevant. Also, you can't be very confident that you'll ace 1L just because you were a good student in the past. You've never been in law school before.

[dabigchina]

but I do not think I am just an "average" student. I graduated summa cum laude and have worked at companies like Blackberry and Lockheed Martin.

troll thread.

[pancakes3]

1) Your talents that notched your GPA in your major might not translate to law school
2) Law school grading is a forced curve which is a fucked system. The analogy I trot out re: the forced curve is to harken back to your 10th grade PE class where you're taking a quiz on "the rules of baseball" or some bullshit like that. The grades range from 94 to 100 with a mean of 96. How confident are you that your summa guarantees you to score a 97+ on that quiz? And not just that one quiz, all 8 of your 1L doctrinal quizzes?

When people tell you that luck is a major player in 1L grades they're not kidding. Yes, there are strategies for doing well but for the most part, all law students (statistically) clump around the median. No real way around that. You've got outliers of people who REALY "get it" and REALLY "don't get it" who rock straight A's or straight B-'s but most peole get a mix of A's and B's that they all end up at median.

Yeah, it's cool that you've got a great GPA and have really solid work experience but that really doesn't factor much to your 1L performance. Your grades play a part in your LS admissions. Your WE play a role in your OCI interviews. Neither are really indicative of how well you'll perform 1L.

The prevailing wisdom is to retake. You've got a great GPA. A great LSAT would work wonders. If you want to stay in Boston, Harvard is a realistic goal. You just have to work your butt off, and Columbia/NYU/Chicago aren't bad consolation prizes.

[dabigchina]

in case you aren't a troll, read this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=325

I decided to go for Cardozo because of the unconditional full scholarship they gave me and they have many programs/clinics I like.

I would've taken a year off to reapply to NYU but I was working all summer so I didn't have enough time to study for the LSAT and I'm not prepared to take it in September. If I wait to take it in December, I would miss the application deadline for their scholarships, and I don't want to pay sticker for all 3 years.

I noticed that my classmates at Cardozo are very bright (some coming from NYU, Barnard, even Harvard) so it would be difficult to be in the top percent of my class as many of you have indicated. So transferring might be difficult if it's even possible at all. Also, I learned during orientation that apparently they have a new policy where you're not allowed to be on both the moot court team and a journal. I wanted to have the opportunity to be on both, but it seems that's not an option anymore. I've been considering dropping out, but if I do that will it stay on my record and ruin my chances at admission at other law schools?

For the record, I'd rather not drop out because I like my classes and not taking out loans. Plus I figure a 67% employment rate for full time legal jobs is not so bad. But now that I see how competitive my classmates are I'm a bit worried about my job prospects, since many of you have indicated that it is important to be in the top percentage of your class for some jobs if you are coming from a Tier 2 school.

[BigZuck]

I was confident that I could finish in the top 25% of my class at a minimum. And yet here I am. Your confidence is pretty meaningless, there's a pretty solid chance that you just won't law school as well as a lot of other people law school.

[ckingfisher]

in case you aren't a troll, read this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=325

I decided to go for Cardozo because of the unconditional full scholarship they gave me and they have many programs/clinics I like.

I would've taken a year off to reapply to NYU but I was working all summer so I didn't have enough time to study for the LSAT and I'm not prepared to take it in September. If I wait to take it in December, I would miss the application deadline for their scholarships, and I don't want to pay sticker for all 3 years.

I noticed that my classmates at Cardozo are very bright (some coming from NYU, Barnard, even Harvard) so it would be difficult to be in the top percent of my class as many of you have indicated. So transferring might be difficult if it's even possible at all. Also, I learned during orientation that apparently they have a new policy where you're not allowed to be on both the moot court team and a journal. I wanted to have the opportunity to be on both, but it seems that's not an option anymore. I've been considering dropping out, but if I do that will it stay on my record and ruin my chances at admission at other law schools?

For the record, I'd rather not drop out because I like my classes and not taking out loans. Plus I figure a 67% employment rate for full time legal jobs is not so bad. But now that I see how competitive my classmates are I'm a bit worried about my job prospects, since many of you have indicated that it is important to be in the top percentage of your class for some jobs if you are coming from a Tier 2 school.

I am not a troll!!! Please do not assume such things. I don't want to waste mine or anybody else's time.

[ckingfisher]

And thank you for telling me about the fact that prior experience does not guarantee success in law school. I am now considering redoing the LSAT; however, I am not so sure how much better I can do, since that was when I got two whole weeks off to prepare non- stop.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Are you saying that your lot of preparation was having two weeks off to prepare non-stop? I may be misunderstanding you, but if not, that is NOT a lot of preparation to get a 169 and you can easily do better.

[mjb447]

From http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p9666719 :

Hello all,

In June I received a 169 and some folks tell me that I should retake considering I have a GPA that would allow me to go to Harvard or Columbia (3.92).

Here was my prep:

All the Powerscore books

15 tests

Various logical games books

I did this for about 3 months while working and then took 2 weeks off for some hardcore grinding before my LSAT.

How would you suggest I up my score to the low to mid 170s? Just more practice?

[ckingfisher]

Are you saying that your lot of preparation was having two weeks off to prepare non-stop? I may be misunderstanding you, but if not, that is NOT a lot of preparation to get a 169 and you can easily do better.

No no, nothing like that. I studied for about 3 months generally every day after work, but as you might imagine, that is tiring and only so much can be done in the evening. Then two weeks before the exam I took leave.

[dabigchina]

And thank you for telling me about the fact that prior experience does not guarantee success in law school. I am now considering redoing the LSAT; however, I am not so sure how much better I can do, since that was when I got two whole weeks off to prepare non- stop.

I studied everyday after work for a year. Law school is a life changing decision that is heavily dependent on how well you do on the LSAT. Don't half ass it.