Non-trad, 4.0 GPA, 172 LSAT Forum

[newyorkobserveher]

I'm a non-trad student (out of school for 5 years owning my own small business).

I have a 4.0 B.A. in Jurisprudence from a small, slightly obscure school. My end goal is to go to the best possible school that can give me the most scholarship money as I am extremely loan averse. I'm not interested at all in HYS unless they could give some merit aid which is probably unlikely because straight up geniuses go there.

I am from NYC and would love to go to a school here, but I also haven't ruled out working in Texas because COL is so much lower...

So I guess my question is basically: where could I get in that would give me some serious merit aid? Thoughts?

[theconsigliere]

I'd start your list with T13 + Texas. Deliberately excluded Georgetown a) out of principle and b) because you will probably get better money elsewhere.

-There's no merit aid for anyone at HYS (even the few geniuses). Doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't apply, especially to H. Although they might not be good fits for you because of your debt aversion.

-You're a great candidate for CCN. I think best case scenario for you is a large scholly to one of these schools. Keep in mind that Columbia and NYU are the most expensive schools out there because of NYC cost of living. Check out the admissions spreadsheets in the acceptances, details, waitlists forum for numbers of people who received Butlers, Hamiltons, Rubys, the many named schollys from NYU, etc. note: don't want to get your hopes up on schollys like Hamilton/Ruby. I have no idea what it takes to get these, but I know people with 172/4.0 have got them before (although 172 is on the lower end for sure).

-As for Penn through Cornell, apply to all of them and then negotiate scholarships like crazy. You're going to get waitlisted by Virginia. It's not your fault

-Apply to Texas. You shouldnt have to pay anything to attend. Only attend if you want to live in Texas after graduation. I would not recommend choosing to live in Texas (or anywhere else for that matter) just because CoL is low. Just my two cents.




Looks like you have potential for $40-50k per year from the lower T14. I wouldn't put you out of the running for good scholarships from CCN either.

[newyorkobserveher]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply!

Let me just hit a few of your points one by one.

- HYS: It's cool that employers love these schools but I'd rather not graduate with six figures of debt, especially in this economy, even with a degree from one of them. It's just not worth it to me!

- Columbia and NYU: Since I'm from NY, I can easily move back in with my dad to lower cost of attendance even further. My mom passed away this February and so he would love the company (and so would I). Love my dad to bits. I'm not opposed to taking the LSAT again because I am not in a rush, so that may help my chances too.

- Penn and Cornell would be cool with me too.

- Texas: I'd oddly enough love to live in Texas. I like the wide open spaces, the weather and the low cost of living. I've lived in a bunch of places, so I'm not attached to any one city though I'd prefer to come back to NYC at some point. An ideal situation for me would be live in Texas for 5-8 years then come back to work having paid off my loans and working in house or for the city. Maybe I can save up a decent amount to put down on a small apartment here.

[newyorkobserveher]

P.S. In that graph you posted, are all of those scholarships per J.D. or are some per year?

[Indifference]

Just chiming in to say you should apply to HYS. Not to go there, as you seem to be against that. Rather, if you get in, it can be good leverage when it comes to scholly negotiations. Also you're in a pretty good spot, obviously, but if you feel you can bump your score above a 173 with a retake, I'd do that. Will be thousands of dollars in difference when it comes to scholarships. Just my take, though

[newyorkobserveher]

Oh I'm totally up for a retake. I am in no rush, and if it means better leverage I'd do it.

I see your point about HYS. But do schools even care if, say, a higher ranked school admits you but gives you no money? That is to say, I couldn't hypothetically go to NYU and (politely) say that I got into Harvard so help in their tuition would be greatly appreciated... could I? I thought that you could only do that if another school admits you and gives you some money.

[theconsigliere]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply!

Let me just hit a few of your points one by one.

- HYS: It's cool that employers love these schools but I'd rather not graduate with six figures of debt, especially in this economy, even with a degree from one of them. It's just not worth it to me!

- Columbia and NYU: Since I'm from NY, I can easily move back in with my dad to lower cost of attendance even further. My mom passed away this February and so he would love the company (and so would I). Love my dad to bits. I'm not opposed to taking the LSAT again because I am not in a rush, so that may help my chances too.

- Penn and Cornell would be cool with me too.

- Texas: I'd oddly enough love to live in Texas. I like the wide open spaces, the weather and the low cost of living. I've lived in a bunch of places, so I'm not attached to any one city though I'd prefer to come back to NYC at some point. An ideal situation for me would be live in Texas for 5-8 years then come back to work having paid off my loans and working in house or for the city. Maybe I can save up a decent amount to put down on a small apartment here.

Okay, fair enough. HYS are out then. There's nothing wrong with that. but see below

I'm sorry to hear about your mother. It sounds like Columbia and NYU should be your top choices, and I think you have a good chance at both. With free living (or significantly cheaper than it would be otherwise) they're amazing options. If it's free living, you should basically consider that a ~$10-15k per year scholarship, because that's how much you're saving (when I was planning on going to Columbia I was going to live in one of their apartments for about $10k for the year, and it was basically the cheapest option).

When I said "Penn through Cornell" I meant every school between those as well. That includes: Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Duke, Northwestern.

Those are total scholarship amounts, not per year.

Just chiming in to say you should apply to HYS. Not to go there, as you seem to be against that. Rather, if you get in, it can be good leverage when it comes to scholly negotiations. Also you're in a pretty good spot, obviously, but if you feel you can bump your score above a 173 with a retake, I'd do that. Will be thousands of dollars in difference when it comes to scholarships. Just my take, though

it's reasonable to just apply to H, I think. Because H is much easier to get into than the others and it doesn't seem to me like an acceptance to e.g. Harvard AND Stanford is more valuable in negotiations than just an acceptance to Harvard. I'm just speculating. I'd probably follow the above advice and apply to all three, but at the very least apply to H because getting in can be huge for negotiations (CCN loses a lot of students to H). I would only retake if you are consistently (every god damn time) scoring above 175 in prep. It would seriously suck to score the same or worse. You're already >=75th percentile at every school in the country except HYS and Columbia.

[PrezRand]

Texas

[newyorkobserveher]

Not sure what that means but I will run with it...!

[guynourmin]

\ But do schools even care if, say, a higher ranked school admits you but gives you no money? That is to say, I couldn't hypothetically go to NYU and (politely) say that I got into Harvard so help in their tuition would be greatly appreciated... could I? I thought that you could only do that if another school admits you and gives you some money.

I would assume the general principal you are referring to here is more or less correct outside of hys. Since hys do not give out merit aid, the relationship between trying to leverage an hys acceptance without money to ccn is probably different than trying to leverage a ccn acceptance without money to pvdm, etc. Only a guess, though!

[r6_philly]

I was non-trad 4.0 170 and got a large $ offer at Penn. This was a few years ago when at the height of law school admissions.

I also are not sure about the "HYS gives no merit aid" thing. My aid came as need aid even though I leveraged it through merit aid from others. So no they won't give you "merit aid" but that doesn't matter they can't give you a large need aid.

That said, I think full ride at columbia and down wouldn't be impossible.

[oidsedidy]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply!

Let me just hit a few of your points one by one.

- HYS: It's cool that employers love these schools but I'd rather not graduate with six figures of debt, especially in this economy, even with a degree from one of them. It's just not worth it to me!

- Columbia and NYU: Since I'm from NY, I can easily move back in with my dad to lower cost of attendance even further. My mom passed away this February and so he would love the company (and so would I). Love my dad to bits. I'm not opposed to taking the LSAT again because I am not in a rush, so that may help my chances too.

- Penn and Cornell would be cool with me too.

- Texas: I'd oddly enough love to live in Texas. I like the wide open spaces, the weather and the low cost of living. I've lived in a bunch of places, so I'm not attached to any one city though I'd prefer to come back to NYC at some point. An ideal situation for me would be live in Texas for 5-8 years then come back to work having paid off my loans and working in house or for the city. Maybe I can save up a decent amount to put down on a small apartment here.

You should go to Texas! I'm biased of course, given that I go to UT- but I cannot recommend it highly enough. Furthermore, I would be shocked if you had to pay anything to attend- UT is very generous with its scholarship money, and your numbers clear both 75th percentiles very comfortably. If you have specific questions feel free to PM me.

[theconsigliere]

I was non-trad 4.0 170 and got a large $ offer at Penn. This was a few years ago when at the height of law school admissions.

I also are not sure about the "HYS gives no merit aid" thing. My aid came as need aid even though I leveraged it through merit aid from others. So no they won't give you "merit aid" but that doesn't matter they can't give you a large need aid.

That said, I think full ride at columbia and down wouldn't be impossible.

They give much more generously in terms of need-based aid than other schools because their entire pool of money is for need-based grants and not merit-based scholarships. It says so pretty clearly on their website. But you are correct that they do have an appeals process, and you are not the first person I've seen here who has had their award increased upon appeal

[r6_philly]

What I meant to say is, need based awards are individualized and not done to a uniform standard, so merit aid could be given out in the name and form of need based grants. And need is easy to demonstrate.

[newyorkobserveher]

I was non-trad 4.0 170 and got a large $ offer at Penn. This was a few years ago when at the height of law school admissions.

I also are not sure about the "HYS gives no merit aid" thing. My aid came as need aid even though I leveraged it through merit aid from others. So no they won't give you "merit aid" but that doesn't matter they can't give you a large need aid.

That said, I think full ride at columbia and down wouldn't be impossible.

You really think a full ride is possible? Wow. I thought that it was incredibly hard to get a full ride. In the grand scheme of things, I guess what I'm trying to say is my stats don't seem all that impressive to me. I was always under the impression you needed something like a high 170s for full ride territory.

I've also read (I've been googling obsessively...) that Columbia and NYU are VERY stingy with scholarships. How would I even begin to approach asking for a full ride? Or, were I to apply, would they automatically let me know?

Does anyone on this board have firsthand experience with similar stats?

[cavalier1138]

I was non-trad 4.0 170 and got a large $ offer at Penn. This was a few years ago when at the height of law school admissions.

I also are not sure about the "HYS gives no merit aid" thing. My aid came as need aid even though I leveraged it through merit aid from others. So no they won't give you "merit aid" but that doesn't matter they can't give you a large need aid.

That said, I think full ride at columbia and down wouldn't be impossible.

You really think a full ride is possible? Wow. I thought that it was incredibly hard to get a full ride. In the grand scheme of things, I guess what I'm trying to say is my stats don't seem all that impressive to me. I was always under the impression you needed something like a high 170s for full ride territory.

I've also read (I've been googling obsessively...) that Columbia and NYU are VERY stingy with scholarships. How would I even begin to approach asking for a full ride? Or, were I to apply, would they automatically let me know?

Does anyone on this board have firsthand experience with similar stats?

A 4.0/172 absolutely puts you in the running for full rides at CCN, because they want to draw you away from Harvard.

In terms of how it works, you just apply for financial aid after being accepted. The school will send you an offer. If you don't like the offer (and have better ones to use as leverage), you negotiate from there.

[newyorkobserveher]

Good to know. Honestly, if I were to get a full ride I would crap my pants.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

[radio1nowhere]

I was always under the impression you needed something like a high 170s for full ride territory.

I've also read (I've been googling obsessively...) that Columbia and NYU are VERY stingy with scholarships. How would I even begin to approach asking for a full ride? Or, were I to apply, would they automatically let me know?

Does anyone on this board have firsthand experience with similar stats?

3.97/178, waitlisted at Columbia and two-thirds scholly at NYU (didn't attempt negotiation)—fluctuations in numbers don't necessarily match up with $$$. At the same time, as long as you're somewhere within good scholly territory (which you are) you always have a chance at a ton of money. I wouldn't try to predict too much at this point. Apply broadly and go from there!

[kartelite]

I was always under the impression you needed something like a high 170s for full ride territory.

I've also read (I've been googling obsessively...) that Columbia and NYU are VERY stingy with scholarships. How would I even begin to approach asking for a full ride? Or, were I to apply, would they automatically let me know?

Does anyone on this board have firsthand experience with similar stats?

3.97/178, waitlisted at Columbia and two-thirds scholly at NYU (didn't attempt negotiation)—fluctuations in numbers don't necessarily match up with $$$. At the same time, as long as you're somewhere within good scholly territory (which you are) you always have a chance at a ton of money. I wouldn't try to predict too much at this point. Apply broadly and go from there!

I don't think there's evidence of full rides at Columbia with a 172 LSAT, my impression was the cutoff was probably around 174-175 for someone with a 4.0. I think both at Columbia and NYU, if you can get even 1 or 2 more points on the LSAT, that could potentially be tens of thousands more in aid - no guarantee, but with your 4.0 really the sky is the limit on what your options could be.