171 LSAT, 4.0 undergrad GPA Forum

[getulinho628]

I took the LSAT this past June and scored a 171, which was a significant jump from practices in which I consistently ended up between 167-169.

I have a 4.0 undergrad GPA (graduated almost 6 years ago) from an Ivy League school in a pretty unmarketable discipline.

My major concern is softs... I haven't been the "get involved" type for much of my life. After college I struggled a bit. I briefly worked in consulting and realized it wasn't for me. I then worked as a waiter/bartender for a bit, and set my sights on grad school. I managed to get into a top PhD program in History, fully funded 5 years. My initial enthusiasm turned to disillusion as I came to see the anemic employment prospects driven primarily by senior academics who will never retire and the disconnect between the ivory tower and just about everything.

My work experience is threadbare, because I've been doing this for the past few years (I'm 27). I speak Spanish and Portuguese fluently (directly tied to my graduate studies), now have an MA and M. Phil, but again, outside of academe I don't have much of a record of achievement.

I would really like to stay in the NYC area, so what would my chances be for area programs? Money is a major concern. I have so far avoided real debt (generous merit/financial aid for undergrad) so the prospect of going into a 170k hole in my early 30s is not at all appealing. Would I be looking at money anywhere with decent employment prospects?

[BizBro]

apply widely in the t-14 and go to the school that gives you the most money. People get full rides with those numbers at many of those top schools. Don't bother with schools in NY that are not NYU or Columbia if you want decent prospects in terms of employment outcome.

[cbbinnyc]

Lack of softs will not matter. Also, you have an MA and an M.Phil, so I wouldn't exactly say that you have no decent softs.

Retake. With your current numbers, you can probably get good money at a T14. But If you can get 173+, you'd be above medians everywhere and would have more options (both in terms of schools and money).

ETA: In terms of NY schools, you probably already have a good shot at money at NYU. You probably can get into Columbia, but you'll need a higher LSAT for good money.

[getulinho628]

Thank you for the replies.

NYC schools would be the best for me just in terms of surviving the three years from a financial standpoint. I'm from the area and all of my friends/family are here, including a very supportive girlfriend with whom I live. So Columbia would be a 50% chance or so of admission? And NYU might come with significant money?

Another school that I'm interested in is UPenn... would I have a shot at any money there?

I don't really think I have a reasonable shot at improving on this score. I think I had a really good day back in June and any subsequent attempt might not pan out so well.

[getulinho628]

I'm also not sure if it will have any impact at all, but I am a non-URM Latino (Colombian/Dominican). Is the diversity boost strictly for the designated groups?

[Mullens]

You have a great shot at pretty much everywhere but Yale. You should apply broadly in the T14 so you can negotiate scholarships and bump up your initial offers. I don't think your softs will hurt you at all and you should have a pretty big advantage over K-JD applicants as most top schools now prefer work/life experience

[cbbinnyc]

Thank you for the replies.

NYC schools would be the best for me just in terms of surviving the three years from a financial standpoint. I'm from the area and all of my friends/family are here, including a very supportive girlfriend with whom I live. So Columbia would be a 50% chance or so of admission? And NYU might come with significant money?

Another school that I'm interested in is UPenn... would I have a shot at any money there?

I don't really think I have a reasonable shot at improving on this score. I think I had a really good day back in June and any subsequent attempt might not pan out so well.

Retaking is not an absolute must for you, since you already have good admissions options and should be able to get money at a T14. But, that said, unless you spent a good 3 months studying minimum and took 20 or more practice tests under timed conditions, I'm not sure that you can be confident that you hit your score ceiling.

As mylsn.com indicated, your shot at Columbia is better than 50%, and your chances of getting money (though not a full ride) from NYU are pretty good.

[getulinho628]

Thank you for the replies.

NYC schools would be the best for me just in terms of surviving the three years from a financial standpoint. I'm from the area and all of my friends/family are here, including a very supportive girlfriend with whom I live. So Columbia would be a 50% chance or so of admission? And NYU might come with significant money?

Another school that I'm interested in is UPenn... would I have a shot at any money there?

I don't really think I have a reasonable shot at improving on this score. I think I had a really good day back in June and any subsequent attempt might not pan out so well.

Retaking is not an absolute must for you, since you already have good admissions options and should be able to get money at a T14. But, that said, unless you spent a good 3 months studying minimum and took 20 or more practice tests under timed conditions, I'm not sure that you can be confident that you hit your score ceiling.

As mylsn.com indicated, your shot at Columbia is better than 50%, and your chances of getting money (though not a full ride) from NYU are pretty good.

I did prepare pretty well, I think. I purchased a number of books and took about 10-12 practice exams over the course of four months. I was also in the midst of teaching/working on a dissertation so my attention was not fully on exam prep.

I hear what you're saying. Getting a lot of money somewhere would make a world of difference. My major reservation is that I'm not getting any younger, and waiting for the next cycle would be a bit hard to stomach and to reconcile with my personal plans for starting a family at some point.

[dumdeedum]

Thank you for the replies.

NYC schools would be the best for me just in terms of surviving the three years from a financial standpoint. I'm from the area and all of my friends/family are here, including a very supportive girlfriend with whom I live. So Columbia would be a 50% chance or so of admission? And NYU might come with significant money?

Another school that I'm interested in is UPenn... would I have a shot at any money there?

I don't really think I have a reasonable shot at improving on this score. I think I had a really good day back in June and any subsequent attempt might not pan out so well.

Retaking is not an absolute must for you, since you already have good admissions options and should be able to get money at a T14. But, that said, unless you spent a good 3 months studying minimum and took 20 or more practice tests under timed conditions, I'm not sure that you can be confident that you hit your score ceiling.

As mylsn.com indicated, your shot at Columbia is better than 50%, and your chances of getting money (though not a full ride) from NYU are pretty good.

I did prepare pretty well, I think. I purchased a number of books and took about 10-12 practice exams over the course of four months. I was also in the midst of teaching/working on a dissertation so my attention was not fully on exam prep.

I hear what you're saying. Getting a lot of money somewhere would make a world of difference. My major reservation is that I'm not getting any younger, and waiting for the next cycle would be a bit hard to stomach and to reconcile with my personal plans for starting a family at some point.

Debt can also really screw you over in the future family planning department, though. Try applying this year and then retaking in Feb. If your score goes up, ask schools to reconsider your new score.

[getulinho628]

Thank you for the replies.

NYC schools would be the best for me just in terms of surviving the three years from a financial standpoint. I'm from the area and all of my friends/family are here, including a very supportive girlfriend with whom I live. So Columbia would be a 50% chance or so of admission? And NYU might come with significant money?

Another school that I'm interested in is UPenn... would I have a shot at any money there?

I don't really think I have a reasonable shot at improving on this score. I think I had a really good day back in June and any subsequent attempt might not pan out so well.

Retaking is not an absolute must for you, since you already have good admissions options and should be able to get money at a T14. But, that said, unless you spent a good 3 months studying minimum and took 20 or more practice tests under timed conditions, I'm not sure that you can be confident that you hit your score ceiling.

As mylsn.com indicated, your shot at Columbia is better than 50%, and your chances of getting money (though not a full ride) from NYU are pretty good.

I did prepare pretty well, I think. I purchased a number of books and took about 10-12 practice exams over the course of four months. I was also in the midst of teaching/working on a dissertation so my attention was not fully on exam prep.

I hear what you're saying. Getting a lot of money somewhere would make a world of difference. My major reservation is that I'm not getting any younger, and waiting for the next cycle would be a bit hard to stomach and to reconcile with my personal plans for starting a family at some point.

Debt can also really screw you over in the future family planning department, though. Try applying this year and then retaking in Feb. If your score goes up, ask schools to reconsider your new score.

That's actually a really good idea, thank you. That wouldn't be too late to leverage a better deal somewhere?

[dumdeedum]

Thank you for the replies.

NYC schools would be the best for me just in terms of surviving the three years from a financial standpoint. I'm from the area and all of my friends/family are here, including a very supportive girlfriend with whom I live. So Columbia would be a 50% chance or so of admission? And NYU might come with significant money?

Another school that I'm interested in is UPenn... would I have a shot at any money there?

I don't really think I have a reasonable shot at improving on this score. I think I had a really good day back in June and any subsequent attempt might not pan out so well.

Retaking is not an absolute must for you, since you already have good admissions options and should be able to get money at a T14. But, that said, unless you spent a good 3 months studying minimum and took 20 or more practice tests under timed conditions, I'm not sure that you can be confident that you hit your score ceiling.

As mylsn.com indicated, your shot at Columbia is better than 50%, and your chances of getting money (though not a full ride) from NYU are pretty good.

I did prepare pretty well, I think. I purchased a number of books and took about 10-12 practice exams over the course of four months. I was also in the midst of teaching/working on a dissertation so my attention was not fully on exam prep.

I hear what you're saying. Getting a lot of money somewhere would make a world of difference. My major reservation is that I'm not getting any younger, and waiting for the next cycle would be a bit hard to stomach and to reconcile with my personal plans for starting a family at some point.

Debt can also really screw you over in the future family planning department, though. Try applying this year and then retaking in Feb. If your score goes up, ask schools to reconsider your new score.

That's actually a really good idea, thank you. That wouldn't be too late to leverage a better deal somewhere?

I can't say for sure, but the opinion I've heard a lot is that if you go back over and over and are nice, you should eventually be able to get something. And in theory, if you can bring added value (like a higher LSAT score) that can only make it easier.

[getulinho628]

Thank you all for the replies

In terms of my resume, my major concern is that I have a nearly two year period (prior to grad school) in which I was tending bar and waiting tables at two different restaurants, one of which has since closed. Would this be seen as a strong negative? At the time, I wanted to make quick money that required the least possible mental exertion (while I plotted my next move), and that was the way to do it. It wasn't that I was thinking of going into food services, I just wanted to support myself and help with familial obligations at the time. From a financial standpoint I was actually bringing in more than in my early post-undergrad consulting gig... Is this addendum-worthy?

[BigZuck]

All that matters is GPA and LSAT

Check out www.mylsn.info for chances

[landshoes]

Thank you all for the replies

In terms of my resume, my major concern is that I have a nearly two year period (prior to grad school) in which I was tending bar and waiting tables at two different restaurants, one of which has since closed. Would this be seen as a strong negative? At the time, I wanted to make quick money that required the least possible mental exertion (while I plotted my next move), and that was the way to do it. It wasn't that I was thinking of going into food services, I just wanted to support myself and help with familial obligations at the time. From a financial standpoint I was actually bringing in more than in my early post-undergrad consulting gig... Is this addendum-worthy?

No, they don't care.

[getulinho628]

Sorry to bother you all again but I wanted some advice about Fordham. I know there's a pretty steep drop-off between Fordham and the T-14. That said, it seems that my numbers would guarantee a full ride there. Is it worth the application?

My goal is NYC Big Law, and just scanning different V-100 attorney lists, it seems that Fordham, lower standing aside, seems to place quite well in NYC. Is this an accurate assessment or skewed by large class sizes? Anecdotally, an acquaintance of mine recently received his JD from Fordham, wasn't law review, said he finished in the top 30% and managed to get a gig at a good firm... would this be an anomaly for Fordham?

[Clearly]

Don't go to Fordham with those numbers. You'll get full rides to better schools.

[landshoes]

It's super stressful to be at a school where a huge chunk of the students

1) want the same job as you
2) need a good class ranking in order to get it

Even if you get biglaw--and you might not--you're spending the entire first year of law school in a zero-sum game with your classmates. I would suggest avoiding that if possible.

[landshoes]

The other issue with Fordham is that you're paying NYC cost of living the whole time you're there, which is not so great.

You are weirdly undervaluing your stats and experience. You are going to do really well in the T-14.

[BigZuck]

All that matters is GPA and LSAT

Check out http://www.mylsn.info for chances

This was the best answer in this thread. I like it a lot.

Don't go to Fordham.

[getulinho628]

I guess it could backfire in a class full of gunners going with Fordham for $.

My trepidation about the T-14 has more to do with the softs. Maybe admissions at these schools are just being pretentious, calling attention to the "Olympic Athletes" and "Rhodes Scholars" instead of the struggling actors/low wage office workers who also slide in with the right numbers.

[BigZuck]

By and large schools don't care about softs. At the very least lack of super softs isn't going to hurt you.

Check out www.mylsn.info for chances.

[landshoes]

I guess it could backfire in a class full of gunners going with Fordham for $.

My trepidation about the T-14 has more to do with the softs. Maybe admissions at these schools are just being pretentious, calling attention to the "Olympic Athletes" and "Rhodes Scholars" instead of the struggling actors/low wage office workers who also slide in with the right numbers.

Yes they are being pretentious. And if those people were so great why would they even be going to law school in the first place.

You are going to do fine in the T-14 as long as your letters of rec don't say "he is terrible and I hate him" and your personal statement isn't pornographic.

[RamTitan]

I guess it could backfire in a class full of gunners going with Fordham for $.

My trepidation about the T-14 has more to do with the softs. Maybe admissions at these schools are just being pretentious, calling attention to the "Olympic Athletes" and "Rhodes Scholars" instead of the struggling actors/low wage office workers who also slide in with the right numbers.

Yes they are being pretentious. And if those people were so great why would they even be going to law school in the first place.

You are going to do fine in the T-14 as long as your letters of rec don't say "he is terrible and I hate him" and your personal statement isn't pornographic.

I'm at work, and just spit my water out all over my desk. Thanks for that post haha.

[totesTheGoat]

I hear what you're saying. Getting a lot of money somewhere would make a world of difference. My major reservation is that I'm not getting any younger, and waiting for the next cycle would be a bit hard to stomach and to reconcile with my personal plans for starting a family at some point.

This caught my eye a little bit. First, to get it out of the way, the advice in this thread is correct.... you'll have a good chance at a full ride from a T-14. You can stop worrying about that.

However, if your primary goal to have a family (and enjoy your family), you will want to do your research and figure out what kinds of law are going to suit you. It's not that you can't have a family if you end up in certain types of law, but you should go in with all the information about what these jobs are going to require of you. In essence, the jobs that pay well (6-figures or above) are almost mutually exclusive of the jobs that allow a good work-life balance (working less than 60hrs/week on average).

I don't write this to scare you or make you change what you're doing, but if I were you, I'd use this time to shop for the type of legal job you want as well as the law school you want.

[obx]

Please, please, please do not go somewhere like Fordham. When I applied I had both a lower GPA and LSAT, straight through undergrad with no work experience, not URM, and got full rides to two of the t-14. Apply and let the money come in.