3.1 GPA, 161 LSAT... Out of school for 7 years Forum

[NervousLawful]

Hello.

Went to top 25 undergrad, majored in Econ, and is currently a CPA with 6 years of work experience under my belt.

I know my GPA and LSAT is sub-par, but I would think that my professional experience may put me at slight upper-hand. I heard that my work experience may compensate for the sub-par GPA, and being out of school for so long may reduce the weight of GPA in my admissions.

Lawschoolpredictor.com doesn't seem to be a good tool for me because it only considers GPA and LSAT.

Any idea which school I have at this point that I should consider for reach, match, and safety schools?


Note: I plan on retaking in June next year (3rd try), but will be applying this year anyway using my current numbers. If I end up with a significantly higher LSAT score next June (168+), I plan on cancelling my matriculation to whatever school I get admitted this cycle and apply to better schools next year using my new score. If I do not end up with a better score next June, then at least I will have a school to attend next year.

Thank you.

[haus]

For what it is worth, I had numbers not that far off from yours. I had over 16 years of work experience, a masters degree, and military service. When it was all said and done, my cycle looked pretty much like you would expect from my LSAC GPA, and my LSAT.

[Anderson1]

You're a CPA? I figured the job market would be more favorable for accountants. I have two buddies of mine who just graduated law school and would be chomping at the bit for your CPA certification!

[haus]

Edit: response was not on target

[NervousLawful]

Yes, I'm a CPA. It's true that I never had problem finding a job with my CPA designation, but that's not my end goal. CPA designation isn't that impressive, and the work itself is even more depressing. But most of all I find legal field to be more suitable for my taste (I prefer words over numbers). Perhaps law students think vice versa, but the grass is always greener on the other side, I guess? But if law doesn't work out, at least I'll have my CPA to help me get back to accounting field, but legal field seems more lucrative if I "do it right".

Anyway, what options do I have at this point?

[NervousLawful]

bump.

[AReasonableMan]

Hello.

Went to top 25 undergrad, majored in Econ, and is currently a CPA with 6 years of work experience under my belt.

I know my GPA and LSAT is sub-par, but I would think that my professional experience may put me at slight upper-hand. I heard that my work experience may compensate for the sub-par GPA, and being out of school for so long may reduce the weight of GPA in my admissions.

Lawschoolpredictor.com doesn't seem to be a good tool for me because it only considers GPA and LSAT.

Any idea which school I have at this point that I should consider for reach, match, and safety schools?


Note: I plan on retaking in June next year (3rd try), but will be applying this year anyway using my current numbers. If I end up with a significantly higher LSAT score next June (168+), I plan on cancelling my matriculation to whatever school I get admitted this cycle and apply to better schools next year using my new score. If I do not end up with a better score next June, then at least I will have a school to attend next year.

Thank you.

I would think about why you're leaving a job as an accountant to go to law school, and realistically gauge whether it will be a net positive or negative. Insofar as employment is concerned, your age and experience can be a positive, but can also be a negative. It's going to depend on what you did, and not to be superficial but just realistic, what you look like.

[NervousLawful]

Hello.

Went to top 25 undergrad, majored in Econ, and is currently a CPA with 6 years of work experience under my belt.

I know my GPA and LSAT is sub-par, but I would think that my professional experience may put me at slight upper-hand. I heard that my work experience may compensate for the sub-par GPA, and being out of school for so long may reduce the weight of GPA in my admissions.

Lawschoolpredictor.com doesn't seem to be a good tool for me because it only considers GPA and LSAT.

Any idea which school I have at this point that I should consider for reach, match, and safety schools?


Note: I plan on retaking in June next year (3rd try), but will be applying this year anyway using my current numbers. If I end up with a significantly higher LSAT score next June (168+), I plan on cancelling my matriculation to whatever school I get admitted this cycle and apply to better schools next year using my new score. If I do not end up with a better score next June, then at least I will have a school to attend next year.

Thank you.

I would think about why you're leaving a job as an accountant to go to law school, and realistically gauge whether it will be a net positive or negative. Insofar as employment is concerned, your age and experience can be a positive, but can also be a negative. It's going to depend on what you did, and not to be superficial but just realistic, what you look like.

I can't think of a scenario where my age and experience would be assessed negatively over those who are younger with no experience. I have made a steady progress in my career as accountant, and my salary reflects that. I don't think the employer will care about why I decide to make the switch in the industry, nor would he/she care about my age (Is there really that big of a difference between a 25 year old and a 33 year old "fresh grad"? I don't believe so) more so than my achievements at work, which I will have tons to talk about while my younger competitors will be limited to a couple months or years of internship and maybe some assistant jobs.

[carmensandiego]

What exactly do you want to go to law school for?

[BrazilBandit]

Since you mentioned salary: I don't wanna be disrespectful by saying this, but a 3.1, 161 is unlikely to get you into a lawschool where you could reasonably expect BigLaw to be an outcome. It's also unlikely that you will get a full ride anywhere with those numbers, so you have to make sure that the 3 years of debt, plus the likelyhood of you only making 65 - 75k after you graduate (jd salaries are pretty much bimodal - 160k or 65k) are worth the career switch for whatever reasons you may have.

[forVictory03]

Talk about coincidence! I am interested in some feedback on this as well. Like OP, I have a 3.2 with a 161 and have been working and out of school for 5 years. Strong upwards trend GPA last two years (close to 3.7-4.0) for 5 semesters straight. I had a bumpy experience my first year and a half.

I would regard my work experience as quite strong with considerable other leadership during school and Hispanic background. Does it all boil down to these numbers?

Given this work experience, would that not theoretically help on the long run when looking to get hired out of law school, potentially in a similar field/role only a more senior position? Are law firms or other employers ever interested in candidates with substantial work experience, to the point that going to a slightly lower ranked school may not be a deal breaker?

[AReasonableMan]

Since you mentioned salary: I don't wanna be disrespectful by saying this, but a 3.1, 161 is unlikely to get you into a lawschool where you could reasonably expect BigLaw to be an outcome. It's also unlikely that you will get a full ride anywhere with those numbers, so you have to make sure that the 3 years of debt, plus the likelyhood of you only making 65 - 75k after you graduate (JD salaries are pretty much bimodal - 160k or 65k) are worth the career switch for whatever reasons you may have.

Yeah, basically for your career to take precedence over your numbers, your career would have to be so successful that it wouldn't make sense to go to law school.

[Traynor Brah]

Lawschoolpredictor.com doesn't seem to be a good tool for me because it only considers GPA and LSAT.

Any idea which school I have at this point that I should consider for reach, match, and safety schools?

Unfortunately, your assumptions are incorrect. Work experience is more of a tie-breaker if you have borderline GPA/LSAT; it's not going to do you really any substantial favors/let you seriously outperform your numbers, especially when your experience is relatively unremarkable (no offense intended; your current career is objectively better from a compensation and QOL perspective than what literally > 80% of law schoolers graduate to). GPA and LSAT are effectively all that matter; we have over a decade of data that shows this is the case at essentially every school. Look at the graphs at lawschoolnumbers.com.

With those numbers, you're not going to get an option for law school that would not entail a substantial long-term drop in compensation/net worth, general employment prospects, and quality of life, relative to your current profession. I would seriously reconsider law school. Especially if you can't break 170 territory and get into a school (with a decent scholarship) that makes biglaw more of a possibility than not (i.e. T13).

[BrazilBandit]

Talk about coincidence! I am interested in some feedback on this as well. Like OP, I have a 3.2 with a 161 and have been working and out of school for 5 years. Strong upwards trend GPA last two years (close to 3.7-4.0) for 5 semesters straight. I had a bumpy experience my first year and a half.

I would regard my work experience as quite strong with considerable other leadership during school and Hispanic background. Does it all boil down to these numbers?

Given this work experience, would that not theoretically help on the long run when looking to get hired out of law school, potentially in a similar field/role only a more senior position? Are law firms or other employers ever interested in candidates with substantial work experience, to the point that going to a slightly lower ranked school may not be a deal breaker?

Regarding your Hispanic background - do you qualify as an URM? that would make your numbers much stronger than if you were not. Unfortunately law school admissions are much more numeric than business school for example. While there are a few exceptions, you will see most people on this forum perform according to their numbers and predictions on myLSN.

When it comes to work experience - Yes some companies will like it, but most of those are not law firms. Therefore, if you are just looking to move up the ladder a bit, go get an MBA part-time and have your employer pay for it.

Unfortunately work experience will not make up for choosing a lower ranked school. If you do end up in the top 5% (note, the chance of that happening is 5%) your work experience might make a firm select you instead of other "top 5 percenters", but a firm will not hire you from the top 25% only because you've been working for the past 5 years.

Be very careful. Most people will be at a salary after working for 5 years where going to law school (especially a lower ranked one) is not worth the opportunity cost.

[Traynor Brah]

Law firms don't really care about work experience. It's quite low on the list of things they look for at OCI.

[NervousLawful]

Since you mentioned salary: I don't wanna be disrespectful by saying this, but a 3.1, 161 is unlikely to get you into a lawschool where you could reasonably expect BigLaw to be an outcome. It's also unlikely that you will get a full ride anywhere with those numbers, so you have to make sure that the 3 years of debt, plus the likelyhood of you only making 65 - 75k after you graduate (JD salaries are pretty much bimodal - 160k or 65k) are worth the career switch for whatever reasons you may have.

I know my numbers are nowhere near what is required to be at t-14, or even t-30. That is why I'm going to retake in next June. But in the meantime, I will still apply this cycle to the lower-tier schools.

Yeah, basically for your career to take precedence over your numbers, your career would have to be so successful that it wouldn't make sense to go to law school.

This sounds like a complete bull. The reason why GPA weighs so much at law school is because the vast majority of applicants have 1 year or less of work experience prior to applying, so GPA becomes the only viable measure of the candidate's potential since 1 year of work experience doesn't mean crap. But if you have 5+ years of work experience with a professional license, how you performed at school half a decade ago becomes less relevant. There's a reason why law schools don't accept LSAT scores that are more than 5 years old - because it is so old that it's not a good measure of your current self anymore.

[Traynor Brah]

Yeah, basically for your career to take precedence over your numbers, your career would have to be so successful that it wouldn't make sense to go to law school.

This sounds like a complete bull. The reason why GPA weighs so much at law school is because the vast majority of applicants have 1 year or less of work experience prior to applying, so GPA becomes the only viable measure of the candidate's potential since 1 year of work experience doesn't mean crap. But if you have 5+ years of work experience with a professional license, how you performed at school half a decade ago becomes less relevant. There's a reason why law schools don't accept LSAT scores that are more than 5 years old - because it is so old that it's not a good measure of your current self anymore.

Dude. Yes, it's stupid, but this is a point that is beyond dispute. See the graphs at e.g. www.lawschoolnumbers.com. You are not a special snowflake. Your work experience does not really matter, at all.

[forVictory03]

Interesting... well thank you for the honesty and reply. To be honest, I don't think I understand fully some of the rationale mentioned! Law schools need student stats to boost their numbers, but I have to imagine there are exceptions to that rule? Other statistics that are useful for a schools background/rating/diversity/mission statement/etc? Wouldn't it be counterintuitive to have high scoring students, but nothing else really to distinguish the student body?

Without disclosing too much about myself aside the fact that a law degree makes sense for me in my further career plans, what are a realistic array of schools that would be feasible to pursue? I plan on retaking in December but with these numbers, I assume there are schools that are better than others to attend? Could use some insight from people with experience. Thanks!

Thanks!

[emkay625]

Since you mentioned salary: I don't wanna be disrespectful by saying this, but a 3.1, 161 is unlikely to get you into a lawschool where you could reasonably expect BigLaw to be an outcome. It's also unlikely that you will get a full ride anywhere with those numbers, so you have to make sure that the 3 years of debt, plus the likelyhood of you only making 65 - 75k after you graduate (JD salaries are pretty much bimodal - 160k or 65k) are worth the career switch for whatever reasons you may have.

I know my numbers are nowhere near what is required to be at t-14, or even t-30. That is why I'm going to retake in next June. But in the meantime, I will still apply this cycle to the lower-tier schools.

Yeah, basically for your career to take precedence over your numbers, your career would have to be so successful that it wouldn't make sense to go to law school.

This sounds like a complete bull. The reason why GPA weighs so much at law school is because the vast majority of applicants have 1 year or less of work experience prior to applying, so GPA becomes the only viable measure of the candidate's potential since 1 year of work experience doesn't mean crap. But if you have 5+ years of work experience with a professional license, how you performed at school half a decade ago becomes less relevant. There's a reason why law schools don't accept LSAT scores that are more than 5 years old - because it is so old that it's not a good measure of your current self anymore.

It is not complete bull. Work experience does not matter from an admissions perspective. There are literally thousands of data points proving this. Three things matter for law school admissions: GPA, LSAT, and race. Check out the data for yourself: lawschoolnumbers.com

I have friends with careers of 5+ years or more in the military, nursing, consulting, teaching, the State Department, and finance. All of them had admissions cycles that played out exactly as their numbers would have if they had 0 years of work experience.

[emkay625]

Interesting... well thank you for the honesty and reply. To be honest, I don't think I understand fully some of the rationale mentioned! Law schools need student stats to boost their numbers, but I have to imagine there are exceptions to that rule? Other statistics that are useful for a schools background/rating/diversity/mission statement/etc? Wouldn't it be counterintuitive to have high scoring students, but nothing else really to distinguish the student body?

Without disclosing too much about myself aside the fact that a law degree makes sense for me in my further career plans, what are a realistic array of schools that would be feasible to pursue? I plan on retaking in December but with these numbers, I assume there are schools that are better than others to attend? Could use some insight from people with experience. Thanks!

Thanks!

From the schools' perspective, for every candidate with a 161/3.1 with good work experience, there is someone with a 163/3.4 with good work experience. Does that make sense?

[NervousLawful]

Well thanks for not being helpful at all by answering the actual question asked. You really don't need to know why I'm making the career switch in order to answer the question - this is a "What are my chances", not a "Make life decisions on my behalf", thread, I really don't need people telling me to reconsider law school as if I haven't thoroughly thought about this - I created this thread because I already made up my mind and have plans with law, and I needed help picking potential schools rather than a bunch of people telling me to give up on law. Yeah, I'm not going to make another post on this forum from now on.

[emkay625]

Well thanks for not being helpful at all by answering the actual question asked. You really don't need to know why I'm making the career switch in order to answer the question - this is a "What are my chances", not a "Make life decisions on my behalf", thread, I really don't need people telling me to reconsider law school as if I haven't thoroughly thought about this - I created this thread because I already made up my mind and have plans with law, and I needed help picking potential schools rather than a bunch of people telling me to give up on law. Yeah, I'm not going to make another post on this forum from now on.

None of us can really tell you anything the numbers can't. Given your numbers, you should look to minimize debt and attend school in the geographic area you want to practice in. Apply to schools that offer the best combination of rank, small amount of debt (either based on low tuition or scholarship money), and in the area you want to live in when you're done.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Law firms don't really care about work experience. It's quite low on the list of things they look for at OCI.

Grades seem to be most important, but once you're past grades my impression is that certain kinds of work experience are particularly helpful. I'm also willing to bet that people with work experience generally interview better, though.

[Traynor Brah]

Well thanks for not being helpful at all by answering the actual question asked. You really don't need to know why I'm making the career switch in order to answer the question - this is a "What are my chances", not a "Make life decisions on my behalf", thread, I really don't need people telling me to reconsider law school as if I haven't thoroughly thought about this - I created this thread because I already made up my mind and have plans with law, and I needed help picking potential schools rather than a bunch of people telling me to give up on law. Yeah, I'm not going to make another post on this forum from now on.

It's objectively quite stupid for you to go to law school with your current numbers/at all, regardless of what you've decided on your own, so it is kind of reasonable that we all reject your premise.

[AReasonableMan]

Well thanks for not being helpful at all by answering the actual question asked. You really don't need to know why I'm making the career switch in order to answer the question - this is a "What are my chances", not a "Make life decisions on my behalf", thread, I really don't need people telling me to reconsider law school as if I haven't thoroughly thought about this - I created this thread because I already made up my mind and have plans with law, and I needed help picking potential schools rather than a bunch of people telling me to give up on law. Yeah, I'm not going to make another post on this forum from now on.

5 years and this is your professionalism - some high school cheerleader level sass? Your question was answered. Your work experience will not help that much with admissions. At the very most you'll be treated like you have a 162 LSAT. Why do you think George W. Bush got rejected from UT Law? From a school's perspective, is it better to have the state governor's son, a mid-level computer programmer or a mid-level accountant? You're going to get in somewhere, but would be better off getting a 170 and trying for Northwestern.