3.75 from Ivy/158, 167. T14? Forum

[nycgirl2014]

GPA: 3.75 from a mid level Ivy
LSAT: 158 (I know :/ no real excuse but will be writing an addendum), 167 on second take. Won't be taking again.
Soft: major campus leadership role (35+ hours/week) while in undergrad, currently working at a well-known hedge fund

Thoughts on t14? Is the 158 LSAT on my first try a complete admissions ruiner for me? Willing to pay sticker/apply ED.

[shump92]

Best shots would be Georgetown and Cornell Maybe NU or Michigan.

http://mylsn.info/2zfjum/

[CanadianWolf]

No, you are in great shape with a 3.75 GPA & a 167 LSAT score to get admitted to several T-14 law schools. Cornell, Georgetown, Virginia, Michigan, Penn & Duke are reasonable targets with your numbers.

[nycgirl2014]

Good to hear, thanks. I'm pretty worried about how the 158 is going to look though? I know schools usually only care about highest score but what about when your lower score is REALLY low?

[Mack.Hambleton]

I'd stick with the hedge fund..

Or at least lateral to another job that doesn't require three years of your life and hundreds of thousands in costs and opportunity cost

[CanadianWolf]

Probably due to test day anxieties. I doubt that you will encounter any problems with the schools that I listed with respect to a poor showing your first sitting.

P.S. Also, no need to reveal that you're willing to pay sticker unless you are placed on a waitlist or on reserve.
Virginia may be your best shot regarding ED. But you should be admitted to Cornell & Georgetown & have solid chances for a few other T-14 law schools. Northwestern likes post undergraduate full-time work experience--so your hedge fund position should help.

[nycgirl2014]

Good point about sticker. Just thinking about if that will broaden my options a little bit.

Thoughts on Penn ED? Probably my first choice school. I'm slightly below their 169 median though. How much will applying ED help in my case?

[CanadianWolf]

Others should be able to help with the Penn ED question. I can only offer a guess.

[shump92]

Good point about sticker. Just thinking about if that will broaden my options a little bit.

Thoughts on Penn ED? Probably my first choice school. I'm slightly below their 169 median though. How much will applying ED help in my case?

You are below both their medians, same for UVA. Unless you have some really good softs, I don't think ED would make any difference. I would just apply to a few lower T14 and a few other T20 schools. Then see what your options are. If you are fine with sticker you would have a few.

[CanadianWolf]

Hopefully someone more familiar with Virginia ED can post. My understanding is that it would help in your situation (167 & 3.75 GPA) but I could be misinformed.

[CanadianWolf]

Read the TLS profile on the University of Virginia law school. The head of admissions specifically notes that applying ED will increase chances of admission for those falling below Virginia's medians.

[nycgirl2014]

Good to know, awesome. I just don't see myself at UVA to be honest so I'm not super interested although I'll prob apply...

[Ron Howard]

ED undoubtably gives you a boost at both Virginia and Penn. Having said that, they are mostly seeking to admit reverse splitters and slitters who will help secure their 75th percentiles, and, of course, who are committed to attending at sticker. If cost is not a concern, though I am not sure it should not be, then ED might still be worth the shot. But you will probably get into Cornell anyway--maybe with some money--so that might be the best option. I am not sure about the other schools that people have mentioned.

[nycgirl2014]

Thanks all for making my first TLS post so helpful. That definitely makes sense about what admissions is looking for in ED admits. Any further specific thoughts on Penn ED are appreciated

Also it seems like the 158 really isn't too much of a blemish on my app? Sorry to keep bringing it up but it's a very very insecure point for me.

[Ron Howard]

Thanks all for making my first TLS post so helpful. That definitely makes sense about what admissions is looking for in ED admits. Any further specific thoughts on Penn ED are appreciated

Also it seems like the 158 really isn't too much of a blemish on my app? Sorry to keep bringing it up but it's a very very insecure point for me.

I don't think any school you are going to apply to will care about the 158 in this cycle. Do not give it any more thought. Just apply early, write good essays, and you should be fine. As for the Penn ED, is money really not a concern here? Will you have debt? Will you be draining your parent's retirement account?

[chuckbass]

You're not getting Penn or Virginia, ED or not. Cornell with some $$ should be in the cards though, and that's a great option depending on your goals.

[nycgirl2014]

Thanks all for making my first TLS post so helpful. That definitely makes sense about what admissions is looking for in ED admits. Any further specific thoughts on Penn ED are appreciated

Also it seems like the 158 really isn't too much of a blemish on my app? Sorry to keep bringing it up but it's a very very insecure point for me.

I don't think any school you are going to apply to will care about the 158 in this cycle. Do not give it any more thought. Just apply early, right good essays, and you should be fine. As for the Penn ED, is money really not a concern here? Will you have debt? Will you be draining your parent's retirement account?

I would graduate with debt but I don't think I'm a big scholarship contender for t14 anyways so I figure I might as well shoot for as good of a school as I can potentially get into. Also I'm drawn to the Wharton certificate program as someone from finance with an interest in corporate/m&a law

I would be very very happy with Cornell, so maybe will aim for that though.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Cornell with $$ would be good if you refuse to retake, they have very strong biglaw numbers

[Ron Howard]

Yeah, if you are going to be debt financing this education you should listen to Mack. From what I understand the Wharton Certificate is just a thing you get to put on your resume for taking a single class, which I don't think is even finance related. Mack may be able to speak more of it then me, but it doesn't sound like something that you should really be basing your decision on (though, I suppose it is very good marketing). Cornell or retake is probably the best option. Sticker really is too much to pay for either Virginia or Penn, especially when you can, and likely will, get significant money from Cornell.

[BigZuck]

Considering it's still July, not retaking in Oct or Dec would be a colossally bad decision

I'd also make sure you actually want to be a lawyer. Working for a hedge fund is the type of thing a lot of big law lawyers want to do. You're already there (but of course I don't know what your job actually is or how a JD would help you).

If you don't score any higher on the retake then Cornell might be the only option that approximates good financial sense. Unfortunately, you're kind of in a no man's land with those numbers.

[nycgirl2014]

I'm not sure if I have it in me to spend another 3 months studying - I've dedicated about a year on and off (with the last 3 months being intensive) getting to the 167 after my huge flop of a 158. Would say getting a 169 on my third try be worth the effort? It always seemed questionable to me to take the lsat a third time...and just knowing my testing history I don't know if I can break 170 or come that close while maintaining my full time job

[BigZuck]

I'm not sure if I have it in me to spend another 3 months studying - I've dedicated about a year on and off (with the last 3 months being intensive) getting to the 167 after my huge flop of a 158. Would say getting a 169 on my third try be worth the effort? It always seemed questionable to me to take the lsat a third time...and just knowing my testing history I don't know if I can break 170 or come that close while maintaining my full time job

Just a 168 would likely be worth it. And if you get like a 162 or something, it won't matter. The schools that will accept you with your current numbers won't care if you score lower the third time around.

It's a $300 freeroll, even if you don't study one minute more it's worth retaking to try and bink a 168+ IMO.

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm not sure if I have it in me to spend another 3 months studying - I've dedicated about a year on and off (with the last 3 months being intensive) getting to the 167 after my huge flop of a 158. Would say getting a 169 on my third try be worth the effort? It always seemed questionable to me to take the lsat a third time...and just knowing my testing history I don't know if I can break 170 or come that close while maintaining my full time job

It would make a huge difference. Right now you're only at two LSAT medians in the T-14, but a couple more points gets you over half of them. Being above both medians means a huge scholarship, and you're not far off from being above both medians at Columbia and NYU. There's no downside, so retake in October and see what happens. As someone who scored higher on his retake than on any PT, I assure you sometimes you just get lucky.

[nycgirl2014]

There really isn't a downside if I slip on my retake and say get a 165? I'm a little skeptical...the thought of improving my chances just by getting a 168 is motivating me though.

Also is Penn/Virginia ED totally out of the question with the 167? Again let's just hypothetically say at sticker.

[Ron Howard]

There really isn't a downside if I slip on my retake and say get a 165? I'm a little skeptical...the thought of improving my chances just by getting a 168 is motivating me though.

Also is Penn/Virginia ED totally out of the question with the 167? Again let's just hypothetically say at sticker.

If you retake and get a 165, it will not matter. The admissions committees (apart from at Yale) take the highest LSAT score. That is the only one they really care about because it is the only one that is used the calculate their median, and consequently the only one that affects their ranking.

To be forthright, I don't think Penn/Virginia ED is likely with your current numbers. As I understand it, you really do need to be at or above one median, perhaps even a 75th percentile. They are looking to admit splitters and reverse splitters in this process. Given this, a 169 would do wonders for your application. You would have the median LSAT for Virginia, Penn, and Duke and you would be above it for Georgetown, Cornell, Northwestern, Berkeley, and Michigan. Even with a 168 you would be on target, or above, for the latter group. While your GPA might be still be a little low for Virginia or Penn, you would be spot on for Duke with a 169, where you would likely receive significant money. Better yet, you would probably receive a lot more money form Cornell, perhaps well over $100,000. Given that there is so little risk to retaking, but such a high possibility for reward, you would be wise to follow the advice given in this thread and retake. If you don't, you may end up seriously regretting it down the line.

You seem like and smart and talented individual, and I have confidence you will make the right decision and find success in wherever your life takes you. Good luck!