ED t14? Forum

[dolastas]

I would just like to preface my question with this: I know the TLS credited response for my situation is "retake, don't waste such a good GPA by pairing it with such a low lsat score, don't ED and risk your financial future, etc. etc." But I am not asking whether or not you think the ED route is a wise choice, nor am I asking whether or not I should retake. I am lucky enough to be in the position where my only concern is getting into the best possible law school, regardless of cost. So, if you must respond with a retake/dont ED response, just know that it will have no bearing on my decision (but I understand the logic and agree with it in general.)

Anyway, which of the t14 do I have the best shot of getting into with ED? I have looked over mylsn and Chicago, Penn, and UVA immediately jump out as schools that it would make sense to ED considering my GPA. I just wanted input from the more seasoned TLS crowd who might be able to give me more insight, as the sample sizes are generally small on mylsn and theres little reason to believe they are necessarily representative (or accurate to begin with). I want to go into big law in a major market, for what its worth.

My preference is Chicago (and I know that they favor the high GPAs, so this might work) but I can't help but feel like I am just going to waste the boost from ED on such a prestigious school that won't want me because of my low lsat. Seems like UVA is the safest bet (which I might opt for just to assure myself a spot in the t14) but I'd prefer Penn and Chicago over it. So maybe Penn? Idk. If there were more numbers on mylsn and I was confident that they were accurate, I would just let them tell me where to go. But right now I am lost. Would it be possible to ED UVA as soon as apps open up and, since they guarantee a two week decision, either get accepted by them or be rejected and then ED Penn/Chicago? Or does someone have a completely different school to suggest? Finally, are my numbers good enough that I should just blanket t14 RD and see where I get in for sticker price? Or is my only real shot ED?

Sorry if this got a little long and rambley, I appreciate any help you guys give me. Oh and please don't quote, thanks.

[FluffMonster]

"retake, don't waste such a good GPA by pairing it with such a low lsat score, don't ED and risk your financial future, etc. etc."

[Smoking Gunner]

You'll get into some lower T14s at sticker for sure. If money's really not of any concern and you're just looking to get the biggest ED boost possible, I'd go with Penn. You're almost definitely out of the T6 unless you have some ridiculously good softs that you didn't mention. Probably still out at Penn, but ED + a "Why Penn" essay + paying sticker might get you in.

[runinthefront]

Don't ED. You'll get into some T14s and they may not all be at sticker...but close enough to sticker where a choice to not retake would be really foolish. (10k a year is really nominal aid in light of a $300k sticker cost)

But w/e you decide, just don't ED.

[Smoking Gunner]

Don't ED. You'll get into some T14s and they may not all be at sticker...but close enough to sticker where a choice to not retake would be really foolish. (10k a year is really nominal aid in light of a $300k sticker cost)

But w/e you decide, just don't ED.

To be clear, I'm not advocating that path either. I was just trying to work within the parameters OP set out because it seemed like he/she is not interested in hearing people tell him/her the "correct" path, but rather to just give an opinion based on the assumption that OP is going to ED regardless of what anyone else says.

[SplitMyPants]

What was your LSAT prep like and what was your diagnostic?

If you didn't diagnostic in the 140s, and you didn't take 25+ practice under timed conditions... retake.

If you don't have the gumption to PT your ass off and retake, don't go to law school.

[dolastas]

I am not necessarily opposed to retaking in order to get into a better school, but again the money isn't a concern so I don't want to waste my time in order to just get a better scholarship offer. If these numbers are good enough RD or ED for any of the t14, then that's all I need. My plan is to ED Penn/UVA/Chicago/whichever school is most likely to accept (this is where I am hoping TLS can help, as I need to narrow it down), then I will just blanket the rest of the t14 (save for HYS, as that is clearly a waste of time and money in my case) and see what happens. Why are people still adamant that I retake? I just need to get in, thats all.

[dolastas]

What was your LSAT prep like and what was your diagnostic?

If you didn't diagnostic in the 140s, and you didn't take 25+ practice under timed conditions... retake.

If you don't have the gumption to PT your ass off and retake, don't go to law school.

So, if you must respond with a retake/dont ED response, just know that it will have no bearing on my decision (but I understand the logic and agree with it in general.)

[SplitMyPants]

Didn't realize money wasn't a concern. Even so, why not retake and then enjoy Harvard or Columbia.

If you're going to be paying sticker anyways and have a 4.0... retake is still TCR.

I'll stress my previous point--if you don't have the gumption to PT your ass off and retake, don't go to law school.

[cheeseballs]

.

[SplitMyPants]

.

[Phattypattyfrost]

So people here will probably hate me for posting this but... I had a 164/3.94 and I decided to apply despite the constant 'retake or die' auto responses from TLSers. My reasoning was that:

1. Now is a good time to apply to law schools. Forums like this have scared enough people away (mainly, I would assume, potentially high lsat/gpa performers away, ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... law-school).

2. With less applicants, schools might be more willing to throw money at those of us who have crap lsat scores (even though we are in the 90th percentile...)

3. I always reserved the right to pull out and re-apply if I didn't get the results I wanted. This applies the most to you. With an ED you will not allow yourself the extra flexibility of being able to negotiate for scholarships (trust me, it works). Unless you are EDing to northwestern (where they give you a full ride) it just isn't worth it.

My advice, apply regular decision and see what happens. The highest ranked school I got into was UVa and I decided to take a $90K scholarship offer to northwestern. I also just got an interview off the waitlist at UChicago. And I am still reserved at Columbia (where I had applied ED - so it made no difference).

Also, I am sure that I will be attacked for this post but just keep this in mind: TLS will always say retake. They may be right, cuz with any gpa you could always retake for more money. What they often forget is the opportunity cost of waiting. If you apply and get a decent scholarship at a decent school, you have a good shot at getting a good internship your second year that pays well and you can start paying off your principal debt sooner. Also, you get closer to that $160K and 25K signing bonus if you want BigLaw. It honestly won't take 'the rest of your life' to pay off $200K... That is a slight over dramatization. Non-dischargable debt is scary but the institutions that you are borrowing against would rather have some money than none and will often help you re-capitalize your debt so that you can at least pay off some of it. With newer LRAPs and PAYE programs, it really isn't going to ruin your life to take a risk on your career. IMO, it's totally worth the risk. But who knows, in ten years I could be penniless on the street regretting my decision to go to law school;)

Also, please realize the adverse selection bias here. Most ppl that frequent these forums most likely don't have the best social lives and are probably bitter about their choices and, you know, misery loves company. Hope this helps and sorry about my tangent at the end. Feel free to PM if you have any additional questions.

[dolastas]

Enjoy Georgetown.

Ha, I know you meant this as some sort of elitist TLS slight, but I would be very happy to attend Georgetown even at sticker. Don't be so hostile because I don't have to worry about the financial side of admissions. You would, I am sure, tell another person on this site that attending Georgetown at little to no cost is a smart career move. So consider the fact that if I do go there, I would be attending at little to no cost. I do not see why this is so bad, even if I theoretically could improve with a retake.

Does no one here ever consider the fact that studying again and retaking just might not fit well into my life/schedule? Ordinarily, I know that wouldn't matter because making it work could mean the difference between heavy debt and little to no debt. But I have already found myself in a situation where I will have little to no debt, regardless.

[UpandDown97]

So people here will probably hate me for posting this but... I had a 164/3.94 and I decided to apply despite the constant 'retake or die' auto responses from TLSers. My reasoning was that:

1. Now is a good time to apply to law schools. Forums like this have scared enough people away (mainly, I would assume, potentially high lsat/gpa performers away, ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... law-school).

2. With less applicants, schools might be more willing to throw money at those of us who have crap lsat scores (even though we are in the 90th percentile...)

3. I always reserved the right to pull out and re-apply if I didn't get the results I wanted. This applies the most to you. With an ED you will not allow yourself the extra flexibility of being able to negotiate for scholarships (trust me, it works). Unless you are EDing to northwestern (where they give you a full ride) it just isn't worth it.

My advice, apply regular decision and see what happens. The highest ranked school I got into was UVa and I decided to take a $90K scholarship offer to northwestern. I also just got an interview off the waitlist at UChicago. And I am still reserved at Columbia (where I had applied ED - so it made no difference).

Also, I am sure that I will be attacked for this post but just keep this in mind: TLS will always say retake. They may be right, cuz with any gpa you could always retake for more money. What they often forget is the opportunity cost of waiting. If you apply and get a decent scholarship at a decent school, you have a good shot at getting a good internship your second year that pays well and you can start paying off your principal debt sooner. Also, you get closer to that $160K and 25K signing bonus if you want BigLaw. It honestly won't take 'the rest of your life' to pay off $200K... That is a slight over dramatization. Non-dischargable debt is scary but the institutions that you are borrowing against would rather have some money than none and will often help you re-capitalize your debt so that you can at least pay off some of it. With newer LRAPs and PAYE programs, it really isn't going to ruin your life to take a risk on your career. IMO, it's totally worth the risk. But who knows, in ten years I could be penniless on the street regretting my decision to go to law school;)

Also, please realize the adverse selection bias here. Most ppl that frequent these forums most likely don't have the best social lives and are probably bitter about their choices and, you know, misery loves company. Hope this helps and sorry about my tangent at the end. Feel free to PM if you have any additional questions.

I have made similar arguments on this forum...no one is going to listen. Be prepared.

[UpandDown97]

Enjoy Georgetown.

Ha, I know you meant this as some sort of elitist TLS slight, but I would be very happy to attend Georgetown even at sticker. Don't be so hostile because I don't have to worry about the financial side of admissions. You would, I am sure, tell another person on this site that attending Georgetown at little to no cost is a smart career move. So consider the fact that if I do go there, I would be attending at little to no cost. I do not see why this is so bad, even if I theoretically could improve with a retake.

Does no one here ever consider the fact that studying again and retaking just might not fit well into my life/schedule? Ordinarily, I know that wouldn't matter because making it work could mean the difference between heavy debt and little to no debt. But I have already found myself in a situation where I will have little to no debt, regardless.

Georgetown for free is a good deal, but shoot for better. People on here are a bit elitist, but some of the scorn is grounded in reality. Though Georgetown likely has lower employment stats because of self-selection, it nonetheless does not do a great job of getting nearly all of its grads desirable outcomes.

[Phattypattyfrost]

So people here will probably hate me for posting this but... I had a 164/3.94 and I decided to apply despite the constant 'retake or die' auto responses from TLSers. My reasoning was that:

1. Now is a good time to apply to law schools. Forums like this have scared enough people away (mainly, I would assume, potentially high lsat/gpa performers away, ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... law-school).

2. With less applicants, schools might be more willing to throw money at those of us who have crap lsat scores (even though we are in the 90th percentile...)

3. I always reserved the right to pull out and re-apply if I didn't get the results I wanted. This applies the most to you. With an ED you will not allow yourself the extra flexibility of being able to negotiate for scholarships (trust me, it works). Unless you are EDing to northwestern (where they give you a full ride) it just isn't worth it.

My advice, apply regular decision and see what happens. The highest ranked school I got into was UVa and I decided to take a $90K scholarship offer to northwestern. I also just got an interview off the waitlist at UChicago. And I am still reserved at Columbia (where I had applied ED - so it made no difference).

Also, I am sure that I will be attacked for this post but just keep this in mind: TLS will always say retake. They may be right, cuz with any gpa you could always retake for more money. What they often forget is the opportunity cost of waiting. If you apply and get a decent scholarship at a decent school, you have a good shot at getting a good internship your second year that pays well and you can start paying off your principal debt sooner. Also, you get closer to that $160K and 25K signing bonus if you want BigLaw. It honestly won't take 'the rest of your life' to pay off $200K... That is a slight over dramatization. Non-dischargable debt is scary but the institutions that you are borrowing against would rather have some money than none and will often help you re-capitalize your debt so that you can at least pay off some of it. With newer LRAPs and PAYE programs, it really isn't going to ruin your life to take a risk on your career. IMO, it's totally worth the risk. But who knows, in ten years I could be penniless on the street regretting my decision to go to law school;)

Also, please realize the adverse selection bias here. Most ppl that frequent these forums most likely don't have the best social lives and are probably bitter about their choices and, you know, misery loves company. Hope this helps and sorry about my tangent at the end. Feel free to PM if you have any additional questions.

I have made similar arguments on this forum...no one is going to listen. Be prepared.

Hahaha it's not worth the argument. I'll let them keep spouting whatever they spout and I'll keep living my life. I mainly wanted to try and put OP more at ease with their decision not to retake and,instead, start their life.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The thing is, many people here believe that even if you personally won't end up with debt, there are still better things you/your family could do with that money if you get a scholarship instead. "No debt" =/= "free." (Which isn't saying you must retake, but just an observation on why you get the responses you do.)

As for the opportunity cost of waiting... As you've described it, that presumes that 1) you get a job as a lawyer, 2) get a high-paying job as a lawyer, 3) enjoy being a lawyer, and 4) stay a lawyer. It also presumes that one year is significant in the course of a career, which it's really not. Again, not to say that you have to wait, but the argument against waiting isn't *that* compelling, especially given that for many K-JDs, getting a year of work experience provides invaluable perspective that can help you succeed in any future legal job.

But doubtless say this because I have no social life and am bitter, so... In the end you're the only person who has to be happy with your decision, so I hope everything works out.

[dolastas]

I may not have been absolutely clear about what I am asking, so here is my clarification:

I will be blanketing t14 RD with my current numbers, but I was wondering, since cost isn't a factor, which of the t14 would it be best to ED to give me the best possible admissions boost. I am operating under the assumption that I will receive no money anyway, so I want to really improve my chances through ED at one of the schools. Which school should that be? My goal is big law in a major market.

I appreciate all of the input from former applicants with similar numbers (keep it coming please) but I primarily want to know which t14 strikes the best balance between good big law prospects + likely ED acceptance with my numbers + high ranking (i.e. if I have a similar shot at ED at Chicago as I do Penn, I would do Chicago. But if my chances at Penn are better enough that I am much more likely to get in there, I would do Penn so as to not waste my one ED choice. Similarly, If i know I can ED and get in at both Penn and UVA, I would prefer Penn. But if UVA gives me a MUCH better shot, I'd rather take the chance on it and help to further guarantee a spot in the t14.) I've just been using Penn, Chicago, and UVA as examples based on what i saw on mylsn, I am open to other suggestions.

For what its worth, Chicago is my "dream school" and absolute number one option, even though I doubt I could get in.

[UpandDown97]

I may not have been absolutely clear about what I am asking, so here is my clarification:

I will be blanketing t14 RD with my current numbers, but I was wondering, since cost isn't a factor, which of the t14 would it be best to ED to give me the best possible admissions boost. I am operating under the assumption that I will receive no money anyway, so I want to really improve my chances through ED at one of the schools. Which school should that be? My goal is big law in a major market.

I appreciate all of the input from former applicants with similar numbers (keep it coming please) but I primarily want to know which t14 strikes the best balance between good big law prospects + likely ED acceptance with my numbers + high ranking (i.e. if I have a similar shot at ED at Chicago as I do Penn, I would do Chicago. But if my chances at Penn are better enough that I am much more likely to get in there, I would do Penn so as to not waste my one ED choice. Similarly, If i know I can ED and get in at both Penn and UVA, I would prefer Penn. But if UVA gives me a MUCH better shot, I'd rather take the chance on it and help to further guarantee a spot in the t14.) I've just been using Penn, Chicago, and UVA as examples based on what i saw on mylsn, I am open to other suggestions.

For what its worth, Chicago is my "dream school" and absolute number one option, even though I doubt I could get in.

http://admissionsbythenumbers.blogspot.com/

[dolastas]

The thing is, many people here believe that even if you personally won't end up with debt, there are still better things you/your family could do with that money if you get a scholarship instead. "No debt" =/= "free." (Which isn't saying you must retake, but just an observation on why you get the responses you do.)

Thank you for this response. This actually may be the root of the problem when it comes to TLS' hostile responses to considering sticker price/ED. I didn't come on here for advice on how to best spend my family's money (what is and is not a good way to spend MY MONEY is no one else's concern, unless I had asked. Which I didn't.) I came here solely to get advice on how to best approach applications this coming cycle, so as to position myself with an acceptance at the highest possible ranked t14/t14 that will give me the best possible chance at big law in a major market.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Right. Just understand many people don't see it that way.

[dolastas]

Don't ED. You'll get into some T14s and they may not all be at sticker...but close enough to sticker where a choice to not retake would be really foolish. (10k a year is really nominal aid in light of a $300k sticker cost)

But w/e you decide, just don't ED.

I value Penn at sticker over, lets say, Cornell or Duke or the other lower t14 with inconsequential scholarship money my numbers will get me. Still no ED? I feel that a school like Penn is only within my reach through ED.

[dolastas]

http://admissionsbythenumbers.blogspot.com/

This is good, but it still hasn't cleared up anything for me lol. It confirmed that Penn, UVA, and Chicago definitely give an ED boost. But I still don't know which school, given my numbers and desired career goals, is worth risking my one shot at ED (and thus, my best shot at getting t14) on. Mylsn represents a very small sample (and, something that no one seems to address on these forums, could contain many false-positives) so I was hoping that people who have been through it before, or have just been on TLS long enough, could tell me - i guess based on anecdotal evidence, which isn't much better - in their opinion, which would be the smartest to use my one ED on.

[SplitMyPants]

I don't care how you spend your or anyone else's money. It's just that if you can't see that Columbia at sticker >>>>>> GULC at sticker, and you don't have the drive and pragmatism to do something about it, it gives cause to question your decision to go to law school.

I'll just hope this is a 143-->164 scenario, in which case best of luck with your ED decision.

[Indifference]

I don't care how you spend your or anyone else's money. It's just that if you can't see that Columbia at sticker >>>>>> GULC at sticker, and you don't have the drive and pragmatism to do something about it, it gives cause to question your decision to go to law school.

I'll just hope this is a 143-->164 scenario, in which case best of luck with your ED decision.

+1