3.75/158 Forum

[shwaz41]

chances at fordham/william and mary/unc/wake forest/minnesota?

solid internships in the legal profession

[jepper]

RETAKE

[Kratos]

Great info ab your chances here

You need to retake. Where do you want to work? What do you want to do? Those "solid" internships are fine and all, but they really don't account for shit. Go get a full time job for a year or two and then apply.

[WeeBey]

I'd give my left nut for your GPA. Dont waste it with a 158.

[AReasonableMan]

You won't get into these. Accept that the internships were likely a waste of time, and could have been spent improving your LSAT score.

[Rigo]

Retake. A 158 is especially embarrassing if you apply with it alongside a 3.75 because that's quite a mismatch.
Also, your list of schools really doesn't make sense. All of them are regional schools in completely different parts of the country.
Decide where you want to work when you graduate and what your goals are, and then build your list of schools off of that.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

RETAKE

[MattM]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

[Westofeden]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

OP if you can retake, do it. If not, your chances are slim at these schools...but you aren't completely hopeless. You are probably looking at waitlist for W&M or an acceptance with little money. I think you have the best shot at Wake. But even if you can get in, doesn't mean you should go. You need to make sure you want to work in that area/have some serious connections back home AND realize that you will need to go into debt. My advice is: if you want stick with the numbers you have, apply to these schools if you want...but also apply to strong regional schools in your area and see what kind of scholarship money you can dig up.

[AReasonableMan]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

OP if you can retake, do it. If not, your chances are slim at these schools...but you aren't completely hopeless. You are probably looking at waitlist for W&M or an acceptance with little money. I think you have the best shot at Wake. But even if you can get in, doesn't mean you should go. You need to make sure you want to work in that area/have some serious connections back home AND realize that you will need to go into debt. My advice is: if you want stick with the numbers you have, apply to these schools if you want...but also apply to strong regional schools in your area and see what kind of scholarship money you can dig up.

We know that they are likely to pay sticker at schools where only ten-percent of individuals get jobs that allow them to pay sticker debt. We also know that the top ten-percent is generally disproportionately full of people on full scholarships.

You're basically saying that OP might not be good at something that many people have determined is a predictor of people's first year grades, which are predictive of job placement. It may be fair and just for some individuals to take out government loans that will ultimately fall on the taxpayer, because most taxpayers are average people, and people like you may be special. The taxpayers should feel blessed that they could help you out in your special quest. But is your quest to overcome the odds and get a good legal job by being the one in ten really more noble than the person who dreams of putting two-hundred grand on black, and using the winnings to cure HIV? Would you advocate for this person to gamble too? Their odds are as good as your odds of ever working in law, and their cause is more noble.

Strangely, the biggest critics of the retake theory are those who are concurrently applying with the person being told to retake. Every once in a while, there's a first-year at a mediocre school also criticizing the retake theory. Why is it that there seem to never be currently practicing attorneys advising individuals against retaking?

[banjo]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

Why not? Why is it so unthinkable that not everyone should go to law school?

[Rigo]

I agree that not everyone has the potential to score 170+ on the LSAT, but nearly everyone has the potential to score 160+. If someone is too inept--whether in terms of intellect or work ethic--to at least get a 16x, then law school is certainly not advisable.

[JuTMSY4]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

OP if you can retake, do it. If not, your chances are slim at these schools...but you aren't completely hopeless. You are probably looking at waitlist for W&M or an acceptance with little money. I think you have the best shot at Wake. But even if you can get in, doesn't mean you should go. You need to make sure you want to work in that area/have some serious connections back home AND realize that you will need to go into debt. My advice is: if you want stick with the numbers you have, apply to these schools if you want...but also apply to strong regional schools in your area and see what kind of scholarship money you can dig up.

It's true that great lawyers come from bad schools. Rich lawyers too. (and from mediocre schools, etc). Ultimately, if nothing else, the cost of going to a law school, practically any law school, has life-long financial implications. Not just "grand scheme" things like "college grads make $1,000,000 more than non-college grads" but tangible debt approaching the same amount of debt most take on as the biggest purchase of their life - a house. Servicing this debt on a mediocre salary, which would otherwise be acceptable to most, is why law school at non-T14 schools is generally a bad idea.

This, ultimately, is the reason why many suggest two approaches to law school: 1) best school possible (minimum T14) or 2) Little to no debt. And even then, one can fail to get a job which services said debt and in both instances, one is paying at least opportunity-cost.

If for no other reason, this is why either retaking or reconsidering is necessary. Combining options 1 and 2 is the best bet (save perhaps HYS).

More specifically, the schools listed don't make sense if you're not applying to the T14. They just look like rankings obsessed applications. Additionally, I disagree and I think everyone can score 170 plus. The LSAT is a very learnable test. Some will have to work harder than others. The rule applies to lawyers as well.

[AReasonableMan]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

Why not? Why is it so unthinkable that not everyone should go to law school?

Because s/he is ALSO hellbent on attending this cycle. Psychologically, s/he is currently experiencing a level of inner conflict between whether they should listen to the voice in their head whispering, "you're special" or the objective data. They realize the objective data is more accurate, but being special feels better so they really want to believe the voice is correct.

When undergoing such stress, a common reaction is to tend and befriend others in a similar position. By advocating against the haters for another person to make a reckless decision, OP no longer feels s/he is reckless, but is instead a special individual campaigning against the haters.

[banjo]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

Why not? Why is it so unthinkable that not everyone should go to law school?

Because s/he is ALSO hellbent on attending this cycle. Psychologically, s/he is currently experiencing a level of inner conflict between whether they should listen to the voice in their head whispering, "you're special" or the objective data. They realize the objective data is more accurate, but being special feels better so they really want to believe the voice is correct.

When undergoing such stress, a common reaction is to tend and befriend others in a similar position. By advocating against the haters for another person to make a reckless decision, OP no longer feels s/he is reckless, but is instead a special individual campaigning against the haters.

This is pretty much true. I'm surprised there isn't more pushback against the "retake" consensus. But I guess even the people who don't retake know their reasons are silly.

OP, FWIW I scored a 164 when I first took the LSAT and I simply didn't go to law school for another three years. Then retook for a 176. Best decision ever.

[Wingtip88]

Retake the LSAT.

I wouldn't accept anything lower than a 90th percentile/164, but a 95th percentile should be your real target.

[ku546]

I had a 3.74/158 in September. I retook and got a 163 (Fordham median FYI). Def retake.

[AReasonableMan]

I had a 3.74/158 in September. I retook and got a 163 (Fordham median FYI). Def retake.

You should probably retake again, but a full ride to Cardozo would be much better than your Fordham offer. Fordham doesn't go very deep into the class. It's deeper than Cardozo but the difference isn't worth 100k. They're also both very regional.

[Westofeden]

Please Retake.

I wonder why so many on here waste their high GPA's......Foolish to waste four years of UG work

Have you ever considered that not everyone has the potential to score a 170+ on the lsat? There are so many variables that play into why someone might max out and keep a 158. Retaking is good advice if you have it in you, but some people don't. And no, the answer is not "well don't be a lawyer if you can't retake".

Why not? Why is it so unthinkable that not everyone should go to law school?

Because s/he is ALSO hellbent on attending this cycle. Psychologically, s/he is currently experiencing a level of inner conflict between whether they should listen to the voice in their head whispering, "you're special" or the objective data. They realize the objective data is more accurate, but being special feels better so they really want to believe the voice is correct.

When undergoing such stress, a common reaction is to tend and befriend others in a similar position. By advocating against the haters for another person to make a reckless decision, OP no longer feels s/he is reckless, but is instead a special individual campaigning against the haters.

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

[Hand]

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

did you really study two years for a 157?

[rdawkins28]

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

did you really study two years for a 157?

So are you implying that he/she was lying? Or are you making fun of him/her for getting 157 after 2 years of studying?

[AReasonableMan]

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

So to clear things up: Everything I said is correct, but you hate me for saying it? And why can't lawyers make assumptions? Deductive reasoning is a fairly important skill.

[Hand]

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

did you really study two years for a 157?

So are you implying that he/she was lying? Or are you making fun of him/her for getting 157 after 2 years of studying?

Westofeden is not the OP, so I don't know why you think I imply that he's lying. I'm just matching TLS to LSN out of curiosity.

[Rigo]

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

did you really study two years for a 157?

So are you implying that he/she was lying? Or are you making fun of him/her for getting 157 after 2 years of studying?

I don't know why you have a fetish for finding every thread where the OP should retake and beating back good advice. Do you just like being contrarian or leading people down the same path you embarked on?

[rdawkins28]

It's amusing to me that people like you function in everyday society. For what its worth, I studied for two years to get a great score. I'm hellbent on attending this cycle because I can finally cash in on the work I put into studying for the lsat and my gpa. For someone who is/wants to be a lawyer, you should probably know not to make false assumptions. I hate you, I really do

did you really study two years for a 157?

So are you implying that he/she was lying? Or are you making fun of him/her for getting 157 after 2 years of studying?

I don't know why you have a fetish for finding every thread where the OP should retake and beating back good advice. Do you just like being contrarian or leading people down the same path you embarked on?

Having been around a little than most people on here, I've seen a lot of ways people succeed. And it's not that TLS drones don't give good advice, it's that TLS drones, most of the time, give such absolute advice without any caveats, as if the dronespeak is some sort of universal truth.
Heck, if anyone wants to follow my path, here it is: BA Liberal arts, MS in Compsci, make money in Compsci. Bummed around in semi-retirement state. Took LSAT without studying. Went to TTT. Paid retail cause I could. Didn't even take out a dime of loan. Now having fun being a part-time lawyer.
Seriously, as I stated in another thread. TLS's T-14/retake/biglawsucks mantra isn't the only way to succeed as a lawyer. But that seems to be the answer to everything, even if the question is: What's 1+1.