Splitter 2.5/177 Forum

[superbeta]

Hello, I would love some advice on where to apply. I already have my personal list of reaches, targets, and safeties, but would like some outside opinions.

Had a very downward trend in college before dropping out, returned 7 years later and raised my GPA up to 2.5 with several excellent terms (3.9 GPA). In the meantime, I took over and ran a small business. Found out later than I was suffering from severe anxiety disorder during college which might have affected my academic performance. Will be around 35 when I start law school.

My dream school is Cornell. If I can't get into any top 14, I think my best strategy is to try to get into the highest ranked school close to home, or a law school that I can get a huge scholarship at. With that LSAT, I'm assuming that I can get into almost any school out of the top 20, correct?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[ScottRiqui]

Sorry for sounding so harsh, but it's the sad truth. Your GPA is extremely low and means schools will have to take a major hit to get your LSAT.

This isn't really as dire for the schools as it sounds, though. Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

OP - your GPA would probably be a cause for concern as to your ability to actually complete law school, but you've put a significant amount of distance between yourself and your poor grades, time-wise. Plus, you've had some real work experience in there. Apply anywhere you'd be willing to go, and don't try to second-guess the adcomms. If they don't want you, make them tell you "no".

[dailygrind]

I'm with Scott. Probably worth noting that splitter cycles are hard to predict, and yours looks harder to predict than most. I'd probably max out on fee waivers and apply to a large number of schools you'd be interested in going to. HYS probably aren't worth applying to, though.

[Gray]

.

[jw316]

Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

Hey I sent this as a PM because I didn't want to hijack but posting here just in case anyone else has input re: the above statement about once you're below a school's 25th.

I'm at/above 75th in GPA for YHS and LSAT still unknown but if for some reason it were to be under the 25th, then you're saying it doesn't matter how far below it I am and to just go for it? So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

You're saying once you're below that 25th number then it really doesn't matter what you score (within reason?) because said score won't impact their 25th/median/75th?

Sorry I've just always been kind of confused about what those numbers actually mean besides the TLS wisdom to try to get your GPA/LSAT as high as you can and that odds tend to be favorable for those who are above both medians.

[JamMasterJ]

Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

Hey I sent this as a PM because I didn't want to hijack but posting here just in case anyone else has input re: the above statement about once you're below a school's 25th.

I'm at/above 75th in GPA for YHS and LSAT still unknown but if for some reason it were to be under the 25th, then you're saying it doesn't matter how far below it I am and to just go for it? So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

You're saying once you're below that 25th number then it really doesn't matter what you score (within reason?) because said score won't impact their 25th/median/75th?

Sorry I've just always been kind of confused about what those numbers actually mean besides the TLS wisdom to try to get your GPA/LSAT as high as you can and that odds tend to be favorable for those who are above both medians.

It's a little different the other way around because high gpa's are a dime a dozen whereas 177s are not. So the willingness to take splitters is more highly incentivized, especially when the low gpa is far chronologically removed. Also, HYS really don't have to take anyone with a low LSAT to meet their gpa goals so the whole scenario is less applicable to the schools that actually have to work to hit their medians (H is the only one of the holy trinity that has to work remotely hard to reach medians due to their much larger class size, I would guess).

[Rigo]

So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

Not necessarily. Look at Cornell for instance. Median of 167. That doesn't mean 50% of people scored above a 167. In fact their 75% is also 167.

SYou're saying once you're below that 25th number then it really doesn't matter what you score (within reason?) because said score won't impact their 25th/median/75th?

People who are saying this are saying this strictly theoretically.

[JamMasterJ]

So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

Not necessarily. Look at Cornell for instance. Median of 167. That doesn't mean 50% of people scored above a 167. In fact their 75% is also 167.

no this is correct. He said at or below, you said above. huge difference when the median is also a large swath of the standard deviation.

[Rigo]

So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

Not necessarily. Look at Cornell for instance. Median of 167. That doesn't mean 50% of people scored above a 167. In fact their 75% is also 167.

no this is correct. He said at or below, you said above. huge difference when the median is also a large swath of the standard deviation.

Oh. Misread.
Other people have that misconception and it's annoying, so I guess I had a subconscious biased reading.
JW ain't dumb after all.

ETA: I was using the Cornell example to explain a mathematical concept (albeit one that didn't need explaining ITT). I know there's a different between above/below here.

[dowu]

Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

Hey I sent this as a PM because I didn't want to hijack but posting here just in case anyone else has input re: the above statement about once you're below a school's 25th.

I'm at/above 75th in GPA for YHS and LSAT still unknown but if for some reason it were to be under the 25th, then you're saying it doesn't matter how far below it I am and to just go for it? So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

You're saying once you're below that 25th number then it really doesn't matter what you score (within reason?) because said score won't impact their 25th/median/75th?

Sorry I've just always been kind of confused about what those numbers actually mean besides the TLS wisdom to try to get your GPA/LSAT as high as you can and that odds tend to be favorable for those who are above both medians.

As far as calculating their 25/50/75 no, it does not matter (mathematically). It does matter to them how far below their median they dip, however.

[ScottRiqui]

Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

Hey I sent this as a PM because I didn't want to hijack but posting here just in case anyone else has input re: the above statement about once you're below a school's 25th.

I'm at/above 75th in GPA for YHS and LSAT still unknown but if for some reason it were to be under the 25th, then you're saying it doesn't matter how far below it I am and to just go for it? So if 25th at Yale is a 170, then 25% of the incoming class (50 people) scored a 170 or below? Or for Harvard, with the same 170 25th, 25% of the class scored a 170 or below (142 people)?

You're saying once you're below that 25th number then it really doesn't matter what you score (within reason?) because said score won't impact their 25th/median/75th?

Sorry I've just always been kind of confused about what those numbers actually mean besides the TLS wisdom to try to get your GPA/LSAT as high as you can and that odds tend to be favorable for those who are above both medians.

No, I'm saying that a school doesn't take a bigger "hit" to their numbers by admitting someone way at the bottom of the bottom quartile compared to someone who's at the top of the bottom quartile. It will likely still matter for other reasons, but if we're *just* talking about a school's published 25/50/75 numbers, the truth is that a 2.5 isn't any worse than a 3.3 for the T14.

[kcdc1]

FWIW, I had a 2.8 and a high LSAT and got a decent tuition discount at NU. There will be good schools that want your LSAT, and it sounds like your application is strong aside from your GPA. Apply everywhere and negotiate from a position of strength.

[superbeta]

First, to say you're a splitter is a bit of an understatement. This is probably the biggest discrepancy I've ever encountered.

Now, let's get down to business. You're not getting Cornell with a 2.5. I'm sorry, but that's just way too low for them. You would most likely be accepted to Northwestern (a T14 that LOVES splitters). However, you would not receive a dime from them because of that GPA, and Northwestern at sticker (~$292,000 last I saw) is akin to financial suicide.

Yes, schools love high LSATs and are generally willing to pay for them, but I feel you're really underestimating how much your GPA will hurt you. The fact of the matter is, your GPA is close to the lowest you can actually have. No matter what school you go to (excluding Puerto Rico), your GPA is going to be well below their 25th percentile. I mean, you're below the 25th at Barry, Cooley, and Phoenix School of Law. You have a better chance than most with your GPA at the schools past 20 (because of your work experience and time removed from your bad grades), but you know what they say happens when you assume? You have a coin flip at most of those schools, nothing more, nothing less. I also don't think you get a "huge" scholarship no matter where you apply. You might get a small one at TTT's and below, but you'd be lucky to even get into a strong regional, let alone a lot of money.

Sorry for sounding so harsh, but it's the sad truth. Your GPA is extremely low and means schools will have to take a major hit to get your LSAT. Most schools aren't willing to do that, or at the least aren't willing to pay for it. I'm sorry for being the bearer of bad news, but you may want to reconsider your decision to become a lawyer. I don't think it's a good career decision for you.

Thank you for your reply. I realize I'm in a bad spot, but I think you're being a tad pessimistic. I've considered my career choice, and I want to be a lawyer even if I have to go sticker-price. I know all the downsides, but I can't think of anything else I'd rather do, and I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking I never became a lawyer because I was too scared of the risk.

[superbeta]

Sorry for sounding so harsh, but it's the sad truth. Your GPA is extremely low and means schools will have to take a major hit to get your LSAT.

This isn't really as dire for the schools as it sounds, though. Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

OP - your GPA would probably be a cause for concern as to your ability to actually complete law school, but you've put a significant amount of distance between yourself and your poor grades, time-wise. Plus, you've had some real work experience in there. Apply anywhere you'd be willing to go, and don't try to second-guess the adcomms. If they don't want you, make them tell you "no".

That's what I figured: that my GPA is so low that it doesn't matter how low it is at this point, I can only go on the strength of my LSAT (and maybe the strength of my last few terms).

[pancakes3]

I think the OP should realistically look for "strong regional" or "best school in a large market" at full scholly as opposed to NW at 300k. A 177 is crazy high and has a reasonable cause to believe that aptitude coupled with 40 hrs/week-level of commitment yields top 10% for either transfer or straight matriculation into biglaw.

[whereskyle]

I think OP will get a discount at NU. I say study up on the school to prepare for the interview, prepare a response to big project question and why nu question, and you're gold, OP.

[Tiago Splitter]

I've considered my career choice, and I want to be a lawyer even if I have to go sticker-price. I know all the downsides, but I can't think of anything else I'd rather do, and I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking I never became a lawyer because I was too scared of the risk.

Okay, but what kind of law do you actually want to practice? If biglaw, you'll probably have to just pay whatever Northwestern charges you, but if you want something else it might make sense to look for a bigger discount than any T-14 will offer.

That's what I figured: that my GPA is so low that it doesn't matter how low it is at this point, I can only go on the strength of my LSAT (and maybe the strength of my last few terms).

It still matters. Most T-14's and even many schools outside the T-14 will likely reject you as soon as they see the GPA. I'd save your money at HYSB as none of the four offers fee waivers for applying.

I think the OP should realistically look for "strong regional" or "best school in a large market" at full scholly as opposed to NW at 300k. A 177 is crazy high and has a reasonable cause to believe that aptitude coupled with 40 hrs/week-level of commitment yields top 10% for either transfer or straight matriculation into biglaw.

I wouldn't put those expectations on anyone at the kind of schools you're talking about. If the OP goes this route his best bet will be the midwest splitter-friendly schools like WUSTL, Illinois and Minnesota. That kind of move wouldn't work at all if he wants somewhere like California or New York.

[appind]

Once you're below a school's 25th, it doesn't matter mathematically how *far* you are below it; a 2.5 isn't any worse for a T14's "numbers" than a 3.3.

You're saying once you're below that 25th number then it really doesn't matter what you score (within reason?) because said score won't impact their 25th/median/75th?

Sorry I've just always been kind of confused about what those numbers actually mean besides the TLS wisdom to try to get your GPA/LSAT as high as you can and that odds tend to be favorable for those who are above both medians.

No, I'm saying that a school doesn't take a bigger "hit" to their numbers by admitting someone way at the bottom of the bottom quartile compared to someone who's at the top of the bottom quartile. It will likely still matter for other reasons, but if we're *just* talking about a school's published 25/50/75 numbers, the truth is that a 2.5 isn't any worse than a 3.3 for the T14.

This seems right and there doesn't appear to be a hard reason why this doesn't hold in practise according to tls. One of the reasons cited is that schools want the best students, which 2.5 is likely not, but it appears more of a soft reason than a hard ranking based one. The 25/75 numbers don't have any hard significance for the school for reporting purposes. The only number they report is a median. A 2.5 affects their numbers no more worse than a number slightly below median e.g. 3.5 for t6. Imo 25/75 numbers are not reported anywhere. If a school with median 3.7 typically meets its median target, then they'd know that both 2.5 and 3.5 would be below median for the class they're admitting.

[CanadianWolf]

Apply to several lower T-14 law schools. Chances are enhanced despite low overall GPA due to 7 year separation combined with several 3.9 GPA terms. Should be competitive for Northwestern, Cornell & Georgetown. Try Duke & Penn.

P.S. To state the obvious, you're not a typical splitter since you left undergraduate school for 7 years.
P.P.S. After a little bit more thought, apply to any of the T-14 which interest you. Your age, experience & LSAT should add a mature & unusual perspective to any class. A 177 will certainly get your application read.

[valen]

FWIW, I had a 2.8 and a high LSAT and got a decent tuition discount at NU. There will be good schools that want your LSAT, and it sounds like your application is strong aside from your GPA. Apply everywhere and negotiate from a position of strength.

What was your lsat? Also can you narrow down "decent tuition discount"?

[superbeta]

Yeah, I'm suddenly getting very nervous. Up until recently, I was pretty confident I could get into a top 14 even with my bad record as long as I had a high LSAT. That's why I worked so hard to get a high GPA for my last few terms, and why I prepared so well for the LSAT.

Now, using various predictors online, and especially looking at LawSchoolNumbers stats, I think I may have been overly optimistic. This is pretty disappointing. I know that getting into a top 14 law school isn't everything, but it makes me wonder whether I am going to have to rethink my career goals. It might not be worth it at my age (32) to go to a lower school at full price.

[TheSpanishMain]

Since your LSAC gpa is pretty clearly not reflective of your current ability, and you're a more mature candidate with some small business management experience, I think you might be a pretty decent candidate for Northwestern. Write a thoughtful GPA addendum, because it can't hurt, and hope for the best. Obviously applying everywhere is TCR here, but of the t14, NU is probably your best bet. You can get a fee waiver right now (check out the Northwestern c/o 18 thread for the link).

You won't get in ED at Northwestern, but you might consider applying ED anyway, because there's a small chance it will give you a boost, or at least get them to look at your application more closely.

I'm a 0L though, so take this with a grain of salt.

I think MistakenGenius's point still stands, though. OP might get into Northwestern, but will he get in at a price worth paying?

Can't hurt to apply broadly and see what happens, though.

[03152016]

see how the cycle plays out, make a decision when you have offers
maybe you'd slip into nu, but it's indefensible at sticker
otoh, i've seen people with your numbers get $$$$ at wustl
whether that's a good outcome or not depends on your goals

[superbeta]

Sorry to bring up this old threat, but I ended up never actually applying. Was waiting for more statistics to come in from the last couple of years of admission data.

I want to be lawyer, but at this point I don't know if it's worth it. There's only a small chance I'll get in to a t14, in which case I could go into a career in biglaw if I do well, and have tons of debt. Or I can go to a lower-ranked law school, but will I get enough scholarship money to be worth the lower lifetime earnings I'd get coming out of a TTT law school in this economy?

Anyone know how splitters are doing this year so far?