Wake Forest, UW, Notre Dame. Forum

[danscott1992]

I have a 3.5 GPA and it looks like I will score around 156-162 on the LSAT. Beyond the numbers, I have done three prestigious internships, which have been with a speaker of the Oregon State Legislature, a chairmen in the House of Representative, and a high ranking member in the house republican leadership. Moreover, I am currently a member of a prestigious scholars program (for students who come from low income/uneducated backgrounds), which requires me to do undergraduate research. My research is focused on the relationship of social media and politics. Also, I work as a research assistant at my university. Currently, I am working on research that looks at the legal needs of lower income residents in my state.
What are my chances at getting into Wake Forest, Notre Dame, and University of Washington?

[BigZuck]

I have a 3.5 GPA and it looks like I will score around 156-162 on the LSAT. Beyond the numbers, I have done three prestigious internships, which have been with a speaker of the Oregon State Legislature, a chairmen in the House of Representative, and a high ranking member in the house republican leadership. Moreover, I am currently a member of a prestigious scholars program (for students who come from low income/uneducated backgrounds), which requires me to do undergraduate research. My research is focused on the relationship of social media and politics. Also, I work as a research assistant at my university. Currently, I am working on research that looks at the legal needs of lower income residents in my state.
What are my chances at getting into Wake Forest, Notre Dame, and University of Washington?

The stuff you did outside of school is nice but you won't do better than your numbers say you will. Check out http://www.mylsn.info

Definitely retake the LSAT (twice if you have to). Even if you get in to those schools they will be much too expensive for someone with your expected number profile. Also, there is no reason to realistically consider all 3 of those schools, I can't think of a scenario where a person would have the requisite ties to all those regions which would make attending any one of them make sense. Just target schools that place well into the regions where you have ties/want to work. You can apply broader than that, but only in an effort to find schools likely to give you a large scholarship which you can then use as a pawn in scholarship negotiations with your real target schools.

[McAvoy]

Echoing everything BZ said. There's really no possible reason somebody should be targeting these three particular schools. If you're going to max out this take at ~162, you're absolutely going to need to retake (assuming you are gunning for a "prestigious" job, considering you described your experiences as "prestigious" like three times). But even if you have modest goals, it's still going to be tough to find a reasonable option with a 3.5/162.

To answer your question directly though, no, you'll have an average-to-poor chance of acceptance at all three, and you won't be getting enough of a scholarship if you are admitted to make any of them an option that is not suicidal.

I don't mean to be harsh, but that's the reality of your situation: you're going to have to get a better score. If you think you need to go to law school to work in politics or in some kind of legislative or policy capacity, don't. If that's the direction you want to go, go in that direction -- law school will always be there at a later (perhaps less volatile) time.

[danscott1992]

Echoing everything BZ said. There's really no possible reason somebody should be targeting these three particular schools. If you're going to max out this take at ~162, you're absolutely going to need to retake (assuming you are gunning for a "prestigious" job, considering you described your experiences as "prestigious" like three times). But even if you have modest goals, it's still going to be tough to find a reasonable option with a 3.5/162.

To answer your question directly though, no, you'll have an average-to-poor chance of acceptance at all three, and you won't be getting enough of a scholarship if you are admitted to make any of them an option that is not suicidal.

I don't mean to be harsh, but that's the reality of your situation: you're going to have to get a better score. If you think you need to go to law school to work in politics or in some kind of legislative or policy capacity, don't. If that's the direction you want to go, go in that direction -- law school will always be there at a later (perhaps less volatile) time.

No, thank you for being harsh. The reason for selecting UW is that I am a Washington resident, so I can get in-state tuition. The other two law schools are based off of personal preferences that derive from multiple factors. I am not seeking a policy related job. I did those internships to boost my resume as a undergrad.

[BigZuck]

What kind of job are you hoping to get when you graduate?

UW is probably the best choice for someone who wants to work in WA long term, but keep in mind that in-state sticker price is still going to put you about 180K in debt at graduation if its all financed by loans.

[McAvoy]

What are your goals then? Retaking is going to be the answer, but:

If you aren't gunning for biglaw and are fine with hustling for a job, UW for a Washington resident who has a really nice scholarship is a very solid option. I would feel very uncomfortable taking a debt load > ~$100K though, and most people here will tell you that taking more than COL debt is an unsafe option for their employment stats.

There are really no circumstances where a Washington resident should be considering Wake Forest. Even if you want to practice in NC, this is probably not the path you should take.

If you have no ties to the Midwest but want to practice in the Midwest (without a specific state in mind), you should go to Northwestern or Michigan. I'm assuming you're attracted to ND's religious/conservative milieu -- that's a poor reason to pick a professional school in general, and Notre Dame doesn't give out scholarships big enough to really make it worth attending over the T14s. At any rate, if you don't want to practice in the Midwest, under no circumstances should you attend ND.

[danscott1992]

What kind of job are you hoping to get when you graduate?

UW is probably the best choice for someone who wants to work in WA long term, but keep in mind that in-state sticker price is still going to put you about 180K in debt at graduation if its all financed by loans.

I would like to work for a law firm, but that is giving an opinion before I even start law school, so in a way that it kind of hard to answer.

[danscott1992]

What are your goals then? Retaking is going to be the answer, but:

If you aren't gunning for biglaw and are fine with hustling for a job, UW for a Washington resident who has a really nice scholarship is a very solid option. I would feel very uncomfortable taking a debt load > ~$100K though, and most people here will tell you that taking more than COL debt is an unsafe option for their employment stats.

There are really no circumstances where a Washington resident should be considering Wake Forest. Even if you want to practice in NC, this is probably not the path you should take.

If you have no ties to the Midwest but want to practice in the Midwest (without a specific state in mind), you should go to Northwestern or Michigan. I'm assuming you're attracted to ND's religious/conservative milieu -- that's a poor reason to pick a professional school in general, and Notre Dame doesn't give out scholarships big enough to really make it worth attending over the T14s. At any rate, if you don't want to practice in the Midwest, under no circumstances should you attend ND.

I have strong ties to both the Midwest and NC. I think we are getting off topic in assuming that I have selected the wrong schools due to geographic indicators. I said I am a Washington resident, but I go to school out of state at a private university (KY). I obviously understand that it would be in my best interest to retake the LSAT so that I can get into a T14, but what I am asking are my chances at the three universities I previously mentioned, not whether others feel it is the right choice for me. Essentially, I am wondering whether my experiences beyond GPA and LSAT will give me a boost at being competitive at the schools I have already selected.

[MidwestLifer]

What are your goals then? Retaking is going to be the answer, but:

If you aren't gunning for biglaw and are fine with hustling for a job, UW for a Washington resident who has a really nice scholarship is a very solid option. I would feel very uncomfortable taking a debt load > ~$100K though, and most people here will tell you that taking more than COL debt is an unsafe option for their employment stats.

There are really no circumstances where a Washington resident should be considering Wake Forest. Even if you want to practice in NC, this is probably not the path you should take.

If you have no ties to the Midwest but want to practice in the Midwest (without a specific state in mind), you should go to Northwestern or Michigan. I'm assuming you're attracted to ND's religious/conservative milieu -- that's a poor reason to pick a professional school in general, and Notre Dame doesn't give out scholarships big enough to really make it worth attending over the T14s. At any rate, if you don't want to practice in the Midwest, under no circumstances should you attend ND.

I have strong ties to both the Midwest and NC. I think we are getting off topic in assuming that I have selected the wrong schools due to geographic indicators. I said I am a Washington resident, but I go to school out of state at a private university (KY). I obviously understand that it would be in my best interest to retake the LSAT so that I can get into a T14, but what I am asking are my chances at the three universities I previously mentioned, not whether others feel it is the right choice for me. Essentially, I am wondering whether my experiences beyond GPA and LSAT will give me a boost at being competitive at the schools I have already selected.

Negative.

[McAvoy]

What are your goals then? Retaking is going to be the answer, but:

If you aren't gunning for biglaw and are fine with hustling for a job, UW for a Washington resident who has a really nice scholarship is a very solid option. I would feel very uncomfortable taking a debt load > ~$100K though, and most people here will tell you that taking more than COL debt is an unsafe option for their employment stats.

There are really no circumstances where a Washington resident should be considering Wake Forest. Even if you want to practice in NC, this is probably not the path you should take.

If you have no ties to the Midwest but want to practice in the Midwest (without a specific state in mind), you should go to Northwestern or Michigan. I'm assuming you're attracted to ND's religious/conservative milieu -- that's a poor reason to pick a professional school in general, and Notre Dame doesn't give out scholarships big enough to really make it worth attending over the T14s. At any rate, if you don't want to practice in the Midwest, under no circumstances should you attend ND.

I have strong ties to both the Midwest and NC. I think we are getting off topic in assuming that I have selected the wrong schools due to geographic indicators. I said I am a Washington resident, but I go to school out of state at a private university (KY). I obviously understand that it would be in my best interest to retake the LSAT so that I can get into a T14, but what I am asking are my chances at the three universities I previously mentioned, not whether others feel it is the right choice for me. Essentially, I am wondering whether my experiences beyond GPA and LSAT will give me a boost at being competitive at the schools I have already selected.

They definitely will not.

[03152016]

your best shot is at wake
but even then you won't get nearly enough money to make attending worth it

unless you're wealthy, have gi bill, or have an employer/some other benefactor footing the bill
tcr is to hold off on your take until your pt scores improve
if you're attending a regional school, you have to minimize your debt
you need numbers that put you in contention for $$$+

[Shirosham]

I have a 3.5 GPA and it looks like I will score around 156-162 on the LSAT. Beyond the numbers, I have done three prestigious internships, which have been with a speaker of the Oregon State Legislature, a chairmen in the House of Representative, and a high ranking member in the house republican leadership. Moreover, I am currently a member of a prestigious scholars program (for students who come from low income/uneducated backgrounds), which requires me to do undergraduate research. My research is focused on the relationship of social media and politics. Also, I work as a research assistant at my university. Currently, I am working on research that looks at the legal needs of lower income residents in my state.
What are my chances at getting into Wake Forest, Notre Dame, and University of Washington?

If you can get the 162, you might have a decent shot at WakeForest. If you want to/should go there is up to you.

LSN shows 162 & 3.3-3.5 fall into the accepted category with 21k-27k per year. There's no stipulation on the scholarship.

[ManoftheHour]

As someone with a similar GPA and two cycles worth of experience, there's a monumental difference between a 162 and a 165+. You're almost there man. Retake and go to all of those for free (or maybe even better schools).

[McAvoy]

I have strong ties to both the Midwest and NC. I think we are getting off topic in assuming that I have selected the wrong schools due to geographic indicators. I said I am a Washington resident, but I go to school out of state at a private university (KY). I obviously understand that it would be in my best interest to retake the LSAT so that I can get into a T14, but what I am asking are my chances at the three universities I previously mentioned, not whether others feel it is the right choice for me. Essentially, I am wondering whether my experiences beyond GPA and LSAT will give me a boost at being competitive at the schools I have already selected.

Few more points here:
- Geography is in no way off topic: When you're talking about regional schools your ties and long term goals are crucial factors. You go to a T14 to get geographic flexibility; you go to a regional to practice in that region. Doesn't seem like you know where you want to practice
- Nobody says you need to go to a t14, I do not go to a t14 (kinda). When you do not go to a t14, though, you need a very good scholarship/financial situation, and you need very specific career goals. You have no chance at a big enough scholarship nor do you have any specific career goals. With the information you have provided all three would be terrible decisions, should you somehow be accepted.

And this is all still very premature. Get a real score then come back so we can tell you to retake. And if you think that 162 is the absolute best you could do this month, definitely cancel and save he take.

[BigZuck]

What are your goals then? Retaking is going to be the answer, but:

If you aren't gunning for biglaw and are fine with hustling for a job, UW for a Washington resident who has a really nice scholarship is a very solid option. I would feel very uncomfortable taking a debt load > ~$100K though, and most people here will tell you that taking more than COL debt is an unsafe option for their employment stats.

There are really no circumstances where a Washington resident should be considering Wake Forest. Even if you want to practice in NC, this is probably not the path you should take.

If you have no ties to the Midwest but want to practice in the Midwest (without a specific state in mind), you should go to Northwestern or Michigan. I'm assuming you're attracted to ND's religious/conservative milieu -- that's a poor reason to pick a professional school in general, and Notre Dame doesn't give out scholarships big enough to really make it worth attending over the T14s. At any rate, if you don't want to practice in the Midwest, under no circumstances should you attend ND.

I have strong ties to both the Midwest and NC. I think we are getting off topic in assuming that I have selected the wrong schools due to geographic indicators. I said I am a Washington resident, but I go to school out of state at a private university (KY). I obviously understand that it would be in my best interest to retake the LSAT so that I can get into a T14, but what I am asking are my chances at the three universities I previously mentioned, not whether others feel it is the right choice for me. Essentially, I am wondering whether my experiences beyond GPA and LSAT will give me a boost at being competitive at the schools I have already selected.

What do your ties to the Midwest and NC consist of? Also, "the Midwest" is pretty broad, there are a lot of states there and I have to assume there are weird rivalries between states.

[pancakes3]

Law school is a very serious, very expensive, and very permanent decision so I think you should do more research with respect to employment prospects, career trajectory, loan implications, and a fair bit of honest self-assessment before you fire away those applications. In fact, you should probably start with the introspection as to whether or not you really want to be a lawyer or not. Contrary to urban legend, you can't do "a lot" with a JD other than be a lawyer. It's pretty much the same as you can't do a lot with a MD other than be a doctor.

[irish921]

I echo most everything already said in this post. As someone very familiar with both Notre Dame and Wake Forest, I can say with conviction that both are objectively bad decisions at anything close to sticker.

One thing no one has asked is what OP's career goals are. That will significantly change the analysis. But a 3.5/162 will not net any significant money at UW/Wake/ND. There are 2 options here.

1. Retake (the right choice). As others have said, a 3 point increase gives you so many more possibilities, and shots at regional schools with money.
2. Go to UW or ND (assuming even costs among the 3) and PRAY you beat the odds.

Regardless, this is all entirely hypothetical, and 3.5/162 will be lucky to gain acceptance at UW or ND.

[futago]

What kind of job are you hoping to get when you graduate?

UW is probably the best choice for someone who wants to work in WA long term, but keep in mind that in-state sticker price is still going to put you about 180K in debt at graduation if its all financed by loans.

This. UW in-state is not cheap.

If you can get a 162 then maybe you can get some money from WF but don't count on anything from UW if you even get in. I agree with the previous posters that you need to aim for at least a 165 for UW, especially with a 3.5x.

And, as for your experiences helping you, my experiences helped me a lot on schools that I was within the medians for (scholarships), but didn't help at all when my numbers weren't there.

[McAvoy]

One thing no one has asked is what OP's career goals are. That will significantly change the analysis.

Zuck and I asked like three times actually, and he has no real idea:

I would like to work for a law firm, but that is giving an opinion before I even start law school, so in a way that it kind of hard to answer.

[BigZuck]

One thing no one has asked is what OP's career goals are.

What kind of job are you hoping to get when you graduate?

[BigZuck]

What kind of job are you hoping to get when you graduate?

UW is probably the best choice for someone who wants to work in WA long term, but keep in mind that in-state sticker price is still going to put you about 180K in debt at graduation if its all financed by loans.

This. UW in-state is not cheap.

If you can get a 162 then maybe you can get some money from WF but don't count on anything from UW if you even get in. I agree with the previous posters that you need to aim for at least a 165 for UW, especially with a 3.5x.

And, as for your experiences helping you, my experiences helped me a lot on schools that I was within the medians for (scholarships), but didn't help at all when my numbers weren't there.

Your softs got you more scholarship money than your numbers said you would get? Mind sharing what they were? This is something that the hivemind knows nothing of (only thing I can think of is specific named scholarships at places like NYU).

[futago]

Your softs got you more scholarship money than your numbers said you would get? Mind sharing what they were? This is something that the hivemind knows nothing of (only thing I can think of is specific named scholarships at places like NYU).

All I can base this off of is LSN, but yes.

[irish921]

One thing no one has asked is what OP's career goals are.

What kind of job are you hoping to get when you graduate?

My bad. Had a cached version on my phone and didn't read closely.

[BigZuck]

Your softs got you more scholarship money than your numbers said you would get? Mind sharing what they were? This is something that the hivemind knows nothing of (only thing I can think of is specific named scholarships at places like NYU).

All I can base this off of is LSN, but yes.

Mind sharing what they were/what schools? You're kind of blowing the Hivemind's mind right now.