2.65, want to go to T-14, T-20 school, softs? Forum

[meezus]

This is going to be a long winded, rant like post of my jotting my ideas down as they come to mind, but I need some help. I've posted my details about my situation before so I won't go into great detail, but I didn't try very hard in school and partied too much. I graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology and am born to two immigrant parents (Palestinian). I was always interested in law and becoming a lawyer, but unfortunately I was more interested in partying into my undergrad. Since graduating in December, I've been thirsty for knowledge and experience and I believe I have matured a lot in the realm of academics and motivation.

In my previous topic, I learned from people on here that law school is almost entirely a numbers game consisting of GPA and LSAT score. It seems almost everyone on here doesn't believe in the strength of extracurriculars or experiences helping at all on an application compared to the former two requirements, but I am still curious. I don't really have any solid work experience or references due to me having to run my family business for personal reasons after I graduated. I am trying to find volunteer or career work and am looking into joining AmeriCorps NCCC and using that time to get some experience, references and study for the LSAT while I'm there when I can. Essentially, I'm looking for some gainful volunteer work that will strengthen me as an applicant (mainly because I can't find a job that would show the same kind of commitment and I'm not necessarily pressed for money right now).

Things I am considering:
Joining AmeriCorps NCCC
CASA (court appointed special advocate)
Volunteer at a district or municipal court (this is surprisingly hard to find)
Work in a law office

I understand and accept that admission is mainly a numbers game, but for someone like me who doesn't have the grades and absolutely no outstanding experience or references, I truly believe that extracurriculars will show my maturity and law admissions have no choice but to acknowledge those. When I return or stop doing volunteer work, I will be hopefully finding part time employment in the legal field and then taking a LSAT prep course, taking a few classes to show a current GPA capability.

I guess I just want some suggestions on ways I could strengthen my application, especially because literally all I have is a poor GPA and hopefully an LSAT score above 170. Am I doing this wrong? What should I do to ensure getting into a T-14 school? T-20? And are my ideas above a good idea?

Also, should I study on my own for the LSAT, take the LSAT, and then depending on my score, take a prep class then take it again? Again, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to have a shot at T-14. I want to take the most effective steps.

THANKS!

[whitespider]

As a 2.65/Non-URM you need to get damn close to a 180 for law school to be anything other than a TERRIBLE life decision.

And, no, softs don't really matter.

[McAvoy]

Can you edit w/ a tldr version?

Also

As a 2.65/Non-URM you need to get damn close to a 180 for law school to be anything other than a TERRIBLE life decision.

And, no, softs don't really matter.

[meezus]

Can you edit w/ a tldr version?

Also

As a 2.65/Non-URM you need to get damn close to a 180 for law school to be anything other than a TERRIBLE life decision.

And, no, softs don't really matter.

I'm afraid I'm not too sure what a TLDR version means.

As a 2.65/Non-URM you need to get damn close to a 180 for law school to be anything other than a TERRIBLE life decision.

And, no, softs don't really matter.

So that's it? Anyone who did poorly in undergrad has absolutely no other option for going to law school? I didn't know the law school admission operated on such simple principle. I'm going to have to ask for a better explanation than "no, softs really don't matter".

[pancakes3]

See, at first you were opening the door for people to be mean to you. Now you're inviting them to.

[meezus]

See, at first you were opening the door for people to be mean to you. Now you're inviting them to.

....by asking for an explanation? I'm having trouble seeing where I'm inviting people to be mean, let alone opening the door but perhaps you're a little sensitive. I'm just asking for more insight than a short, unhelpful answer.

[ScottRiqui]

I'm going to have to ask for a better explanation than "no, softs really don't matter".

It's an oversimplification to say they "don't matter", but it's true that the softs you can get during undergrad, or during a year or two between undergrad and law school won't help you significantly over-perform your numbers.

Things like holding advanced degrees, being a Rhodes Scholar, military service, or significant work experience will give a non-negligible boost. I got into UT with a slightly lower GPA than yours, and I suspect I would have had a shot at UVA or NU had I applied, given my military/work experience. But there's not much you can do at the last minute that will seriously "buff up" your application.

[McAvoy]

Yep if you royally fucked up in undergrad there's almost nothing you can do to overcome that and law school is likely never going to be a very attractive option for you. Get a score ~98 percentile and we'll talk.

Unless you're like a rhode scholar non-HYS schools don't give a fuck about your softs (though military tends to help across the board). There is ample evidence to support this.

TLDR means your post is way too long and I'm pry not going to read it; give a shorter version

[meezus]

I'm going to have to ask for a better explanation than "no, softs really don't matter".

It's an oversimplification to say they "don't matter", but it's true that the softs you can get during undergrad, or during a year or two between undergrad and law school won't help you significantly over-perform your numbers.

Things like holding advanced degrees, being a Rhodes Scholar, military service, or significant work experience will give a non-negligible boost. I got into UT with a slightly lower GPA than yours, and I suspect I would have had a shot at UVA or NU had I applied, given my military/work experience. But there's not much you can do at the last minute that will seriously "buff up" your application.

Thank you for your response! I understand that the academic factors are a game of numbers and there is not much I can do to change that. But I am willing to do whatever it takes to most effectively increase my chances. Even if that means going back to school for a year or getting a certificate in something, making straight A's, and then doing some volunteer or work experience before applying. I want to begin the application process within the next two years.

And while I agree that there probably isn't much there can do, is there anything that I can? Or should I just give this up and look for a career in some other field. I believe and have been told I'd make a good lawyer (I know this doesn't objectively account for anything) and I don't want to completely give it up just because my marks on my transcript are not good. I need the admissions to know that those grades are a reflection of a student I used to be, and I am capable of much more now. Do admissions listen to this, or is it a "too bad, so sad" type of deal?

[philepistemer]

It isn't outside the realm of possibility that you could get into a lower T-14, but softs aren't what's going to get you there, unless you really do something big like write a prestigious prize-winning novel, start a company that you sell for a billion dollars, or solve a Millennium Prize Problem. (Though under no circumstance should you go law school if you do either of the latter two.)

Admissions people admit prospects for the sole reason that if the person they admit attends their school, then the school will look more prestigious for it. Most people do this by getting a high LSAT score, which allows schools to have higher LSAT medians, which makes them look more selective and prestigious. Americorps people are a dime a dozen (chronic volunteers even more so), and no one will think a school is more prestigious because some such person went there. Volunteering will help you down the road if you want to do PI, but if you know you want to be a private-sector lawyer, then don't bother about any of that stuff and focus on doing well on the LSAT.

[Attax]

Here's what you can do:

1. Self study for the LSAT
2. Score really well on the LSAT
3. Retake the LSAT

This is your only way to go to law school without committing financial suicide. As someone who had a marginally better GPA, it is amazing what a good LSAT can accomplish at some schools. I'd give up hopes on going to a T14 at a reasonable cost unless you get a 180 and even then it is dubious as to whether or not you'll get money to make it worthwhile. You should primarily be looking at good regional schools at low to no cost, which will still require an LSAT of 165 or above, preferably 170 or above in your case.

[Attax]

Thank you for your response! I understand that the academic factors are a game of numbers and there is not much I can do to change that. But I am willing to do whatever it takes to most effectively increase my chances. Even if that means going back to school for a year or getting a certificate in something, making straight A's, and then doing some volunteer or work experience before applying. I want to begin the application process within the next two years.

And while I agree that there probably isn't much there can do, is there anything that I can? Or should I just give this up and look for a career in some other field. I believe and have been told I'd make a good lawyer (I know this doesn't objectively account for anything) and I don't want to completely give it up just because my marks on my transcript are not good. I need the admissions to know that those grades are a reflection of a student I used to be, and I am capable of much more now. Do admissions listen to this, or is it a "too bad, so sad" type of deal?

Listen to what you're saying: you want them to know you can do better? That is what you can demonstrate with the LSAT. Getting better grades won't matter, once you graduate your LSAC GPA won't change at all, it will be a waste of time. Continue running your business: softs only really matter if you are a borderline admit, with your GPA you need an LSAT > 75th to even be an admit at all, you'll not ever really be borderline. Stop worrying about it and go study for the LSAT. There are tons of awesome guides on here to help you get the score that you need. You're looking for validation in an action that you simply won't receive here.

[meezus]

Thank you for your response! I understand that the academic factors are a game of numbers and there is not much I can do to change that. But I am willing to do whatever it takes to most effectively increase my chances. Even if that means going back to school for a year or getting a certificate in something, making straight A's, and then doing some volunteer or work experience before applying. I want to begin the application process within the next two years.

And while I agree that there probably isn't much there can do, is there anything that I can? Or should I just give this up and look for a career in some other field. I believe and have been told I'd make a good lawyer (I know this doesn't objectively account for anything) and I don't want to completely give it up just because my marks on my transcript are not good. I need the admissions to know that those grades are a reflection of a student I used to be, and I am capable of much more now. Do admissions listen to this, or is it a "too bad, so sad" type of deal?

Listen to what you're saying: you want them to know you can do better? That is what you can demonstrate with the LSAT. Getting better grades won't matter, once you graduate your LSAC GPA won't change at all, it will be a waste of time. Continue running your business: softs only really matter if you are a borderline admit, with your GPA you need an LSAT > 75th to even be an admit at all, you'll not ever really be borderline. Stop worrying about it and go study for the LSAT. There are tons of awesome guides on here to help you get the score that you need. You're looking for validation in an action that you simply won't receive here.

I'm not necessarily looking for validation, I'm just asking if this is an appropriate, beneficial course of action. If not, so be it, but I have a hard time believing that a 175+ on the LSAT will be enough for me to talk about on the personal statement. I know that the most important thing for me to do now is score above the 75th percentile on the LSAT and that will be the single deciding factor, but I'm just asking if there is anything else I can do to strengthen my app, because that will be all I have to write about, aside from running a family business due to an illness in the family.

[A. Nony Mouse]

So that's it? Anyone who did poorly in undergrad has absolutely no other option for going to law school? I didn't know the law school admission operated on such simple principle. I'm going to have to ask for a better explanation than "no, softs really don't matter".

You have plenty of options for going to law school - there are plenty of schools that will take someone with a low GPA. They're just not schools you're likely to want to go to.

But no, there's no reason schools have to overlook your GPA in admissions. You don't have a right to get into a T-14 with a low GPA just because you want it. Softs can make a difference at the margins - if comparing 2 otherwise equally compelling candidates, for instance. But they don't make up for a low GPA. As everyone else has said, a high LSAT will be the most helpful and do much more for your application than anything you can accomplish work-wise in a year or two.

And running a family business would make a perfectly great personal statement.

[ScottRiqui]

I need the admissions to know that those grades are a reflection of a student I used to be, and I am capable of much more now. Do admissions listen to this, or is it a "too bad, so sad" type of deal?

You're not going to be able to do the bolded when your uGPA is so recent. I had twenty years between my uGPA and law school, with a master's in the much more recent past. So to the *very limited* extent that schools cared about how well my uGPA reflected my current abilities, I was able to assuage their concerns somewhat.

Right now, your LSAT is the last and most significant thing in your application that you can affect, so crushing it has to be your absolute highest priority.

Don't worry about your personal statement. Almost anyone, regardless of grades/experience, can write a PS that might not 'wow' the adcomms, but at least it won't stand out as the weak link in your application.

[McAvoy]

Thank you for your response! I understand that the academic factors are a game of numbers and there is not much I can do to change that. But I am willing to do whatever it takes to most effectively increase my chances. Even if that means going back to school for a year or getting a certificate in something, making straight A's, and then doing some volunteer or work experience before applying. I want to begin the application process within the next two years.

And while I agree that there probably isn't much there can do, is there anything that I can? Or should I just give this up and look for a career in some other field. I believe and have been told I'd make a good lawyer (I know this doesn't objectively account for anything) and I don't want to completely give it up just because my marks on my transcript are not good. I need the admissions to know that those grades are a reflection of a student I used to be, and I am capable of much more now. Do admissions listen to this, or is it a "too bad, so sad" type of deal?

Listen to what you're saying: you want them to know you can do better? That is what you can demonstrate with the LSAT. Getting better grades won't matter, once you graduate your LSAC GPA won't change at all, it will be a waste of time. Continue running your business: softs only really matter if you are a borderline admit, with your GPA you need an LSAT > 75th to even be an admit at all, you'll not ever really be borderline. Stop worrying about it and go study for the LSAT. There are tons of awesome guides on here to help you get the score that you need. You're looking for validation in an action that you simply won't receive here.

I'm not necessarily looking for validation, I'm just asking if this is an appropriate, beneficial course of action. If not, so be it, but I have a hard time believing that a 175+ on the LSAT will be enough for me to talk about on the personal statement. I know that the most important thing for me to do now is score above the 75th percentile on the LSAT and that will be the single deciding factor, but I'm just asking if there is anything else I can do to strengthen my app, because that will be all I have to write about, aside from running a family business due to an illness in the family.

You know how we said softs don't matter at all? They might actually matter more than your personal statement, which only tends to matter if it demonstrates that you are borderline illiterate or very careless. People get into Harvard writing about an anecdote w/ their childhood pet.

[meezus]

This is all helpful. I just want to make clear I know that I am not under any circumstances entitled to a T-14 school. I know my GPA is pretty horrendous for these standards. I am just trying to increase my chances as best as I can, which from what I've learned here is to absolutely rock the LSAT.

So my plan of action now:

Self-study for LSAT
Take LSAT
*Depending on score*
Take a prep class
Retake LSAT
Apply

Does this sound more reasonable? I'll probably try to squeeze in some work experience somewhere there to make some money before starting school, but now I know that the single most distinguishing factor will be my LSAT.

[ymmv]

You obviously want TLS's blessing for some reason. But the truth is that there's nothing else to talk about until you're PT'ing close to 180, and even then it's moot until you have an actual LSAT score. Get studying if you're really serious about law school.

[meezus]

You obviously want TLS's blessing for some reason. But the truth is that there's nothing else to talk about until you're PT'ing close to 180, and even then it's moot until you have an actual LSAT score. Get studying if you're really serious about law school.

I'm liking the attitude. No blessing, I'm just looking for advice, bud. Cheers.

[McAvoy]

This is all helpful. I just want to make clear I know that I am not under any circumstances entitled to a T-14 school. I know my GPA is pretty horrendous for these standards. I am just trying to increase my chances as best as I can, which from what I've learned here is to absolutely rock the LSAT.

So my plan of action now:

Self-study for LSAT
Take LSAT
*Depending on score*
Take a prep class
Retake LSAT
Apply

Does this sound more reasonable? I'll probably try to squeeze in some work experience somewhere there to make some money before starting school, but now I know that the single most distinguishing factor will be my LSAT.

Yeah the LSAT is not a full-time job; you can and should be doing both at once. jobs & softs may not matter so much for admission, but they can make a buttload of difference in actually getting a job as a lawyer/making up for the lack of scholarships you're going to get because of your GPA/being a person

[meezus]

Yeah the LSAT is not a full-time job; you can and should be doing both at once. jobs & softs may not matter so much for admission, but they can make a buttload of difference in actually getting a job as a lawyer/making up for the lack of scholarships you're going to get because of your GPA/being a person

I'll definitely be needing to work to support myself. And like you said, if the softs or job experience I get now won't help for admissions, I'm sure they will have an impact on my chances of getting a job after law school.

[Attax]

This is all helpful. I just want to make clear I know that I am not under any circumstances entitled to a T-14 school. I know my GPA is pretty horrendous for these standards. I am just trying to increase my chances as best as I can, which from what I've learned here is to absolutely rock the LSAT.

So my plan of action now:

Self-study for LSAT
Take LSAT
*Depending on score*
Take a prep class
Retake LSAT
Apply

Does this sound more reasonable? I'll probably try to squeeze in some work experience somewhere there to make some money before starting school, but now I know that the single most distinguishing factor will be my LSAT.

What do you mean by a prep class? Just self study until you're consistently scoring 175+ then take the LSAT.

[meezus]

What do you mean by a prep class? Just self study until you're consistently scoring 175+ then take the LSAT.

Self study until I get a 175+ on practice tests, you mean? That's the plan, but I'm saying after my first LSAT, if the score for some reason is not around the range I need it to be, I'll be taking a prep class. From what I understand you can only take the LSAT 3 times in a two year period, and those scores are averaged.

Also, anyone happen to know best prep books to essentially learn to master the learnable parts of the LSAT (i.e., logic games)?

[McAvoy]

Yeah the LSAT is not a full-time job; you can and should be doing both at once. jobs & softs may not matter so much for admission, but they can make a buttload of difference in actually getting a job as a lawyer/making up for the lack of scholarships you're going to get because of your GPA/being a person

I'll definitely be needing to work to support myself. And like you said, if the softs or job experience I get now won't help for admissions, I'm sure they will have an impact on my chances of getting a job after law school.

Yeah try to shoot for a job that looks good enough on paper and pays well but allows you to screw around all day (ie a Chandler job). Helps a lot w/ LSAT prep if you're never burned out from work.

I'd recommend powerscore btw

[whitespider]

Most schools only care about your highest score because that's what counts for rankings.