3.0 / 165 / strong softs Forum

[MassiveSplit]

Hi all:

I'd like to get some feedback from TLS on choosing where to apply. I will be applying to the two AZ state schools as this is where I am from. I know that the majority of responses will consist of some variation on "retake and wait till next year," but I have taken the LSAT 3 times.

I applied last cycle and was admitted to several T100 schools with substantial scholarships. I chose to wait a year and was able to improve my LSAT by 9 points.

Which T25 schools may be sympathetic to my low UG GPA? I went to a T25 public university and have an upward grade trend.

Other app details:

-1 year non-profit legal work experience at a major state agency (current job)
-2 years research experience in a law & policy lab (ongoing). Worked on half a dozen successful studies as an RA. Currently writing a paper for publication on children's equal access to justice.
-1 statewide conference presentation on the above topic
-very strong letters of recommendation

Thanks in advance!

[McAvoy]

If you want to practice in Arizona:
- Play U of A and ASU against each other for scholarship money and go to the one you're most comfortable with. You're going to have to hustle, but if you keep your costs down, these can both be defensible options as a lifelong Arizonan.

If you want to practice essentially anywhere else:
- Take a few years off and retake again. You're not going to get into any national schools, and you're not going to get into any strong regionals nor get scholarships that are worth making a big move for.

With your GPA, if you don't think you can get > 170 eventually you really are going to need to lower your expectations. And even if you retake and get into the 170s (what you'll need if you want to get T14/20), you're not going to be looked at for great scholarships. And above average is more like it re. your softs. No, they won't matter. Also "T25" and "T100" are meaningless distinctions that you should use anymore.

In the short term, I'd say UA or ASU or don't go.

[03152016]

problem is he probably won't get enough money to make either worth attending

[McAvoy]

problem is he probably won't get enough money to make either worth attending

My b I assumed ASU/UA would give more money to a 165 but mylsn says no.

I redact all advice that is not about retaking or not going to law school.

[brezz]

MyLSN doesn't have info from the most recent cycle, and there isn't enough data from the 2012-2013 cycle to make any conclusions on whether a 165 gets you scholarship money as an Arizona resident. As an Arizona resident, I bet you get decent money from UA at least. UA has increased the amount of scholarship money they have given in recent years, and they have also accepted more splitters. In the 2012-13 cycle, I received a full ride with a 164 (but admittedly, an above 75% GPA as well). McAvoy's initial advice is TCR.

[03152016]

what this thread really needs is some idiot chiming in with irrelevant ancedotes about a situation completely different than-

MyLSN doesn't have info from the most recent cycle, and there isn't enough data from the 2012-2013 cycle to make any conclusions on whether a 165 gets you scholarship money as an Arizona resident. As an Arizona resident, I bet you get decent money from UA at least. UA has increased the amount of scholarship money they have given in recent years, and they have also accepted more splitters. In the 2012-13 cycle, I received a full ride with a 164 (but admittedly, an above 75% GPA as well). McAvoy's initial advice is TCR.

withdrawn

[brezz]

what this thread really needs is some idiot chiming in with irrelevant ancedotes about a situation completely different than-

MyLSN doesn't have info from the most recent cycle, and there isn't enough data from the 2012-2013 cycle to make any conclusions on whether a 165 gets you scholarship money as an Arizona resident. As an Arizona resident, I bet you get decent money from UA at least. UA has increased the amount of scholarship money they have given in recent years, and they have also accepted more splitters. In the 2012-13 cycle, I received a full ride with a 164 (but admittedly, an above 75% GPA as well). McAvoy's initial advice is TCR.

withdrawn

What this thread really needs is law students insulting people on internet forums to compensate for their apparent personality defects.

I admit that it was an anecdote that doesn't necessarily mean anything for OP's chances of getting scholarship money. But the fact remains that UA has substantially increased the amount of scholarship money available over the past two cycles. Not only is that clearly apparent from looking at LSN, but I was also told that by an adcomm at UA when I applied two cycles ago. You're free to disagree with me on whether OP will get substantial money from either school, but unless you have insider knowledge, previous cycles on MyLSN prior to the 2012-13 cycle aren't an accurate representation of the amount of scholarship money UA gives now.

[03152016]

what this thread really needs is some idiot chiming in with irrelevant ancedotes about a situation completely different than-

MyLSN doesn't have info from the most recent cycle, and there isn't enough data from the 2012-2013 cycle to make any conclusions on whether a 165 gets you scholarship money as an Arizona resident. As an Arizona resident, I bet you get decent money from UA at least. UA has increased the amount of scholarship money they have given in recent years, and they have also accepted more splitters. In the 2012-13 cycle, I received a full ride with a 164 (but admittedly, an above 75% GPA as well). McAvoy's initial advice is TCR.

withdrawn

What this thread really needs is law students insulting people on internet forums to compensate for their apparent personality defects.

I admit that it was an anecdote that doesn't necessarily mean anything for OP's chances of getting scholarship money. But the fact remains that UA has substantially increased the amount of scholarship money available over the past two cycles. Not only is that clearly apparent from looking at LSN, but I was also told that by an adcomm at UA when I applied two cycles ago. You're free to disagree with me on whether OP will get substantial money from either school, but unless you have insider knowledge, previous cycles on MyLSN prior to the 2012-13 cycle aren't an accurate representation of the amount of scholarship money UA gives now.

ftfy

you're either profoundly ignorant or a ua shill if you think 3.0/165 gets you enough money to make attending worth it
165 to ua's median 160 doesn't overcome 3.0 to ua's median 3.57
ua is an objectively awful decision at anything less than a half ride, and -.57 gpa isn't putting op on the right side of the 78/22 split

also so glad ua is increasing amount of scholly the past few years!!!!
average ua law debt 2008: $60,000
average ua law debt 2014: $91,000
lol just lol

[brezz]

what this thread really needs is some idiot chiming in with irrelevant ancedotes about a situation completely different than-

MyLSN doesn't have info from the most recent cycle, and there isn't enough data from the 2012-2013 cycle to make any conclusions on whether a 165 gets you scholarship money as an Arizona resident. As an Arizona resident, I bet you get decent money from UA at least. UA has increased the amount of scholarship money they have given in recent years, and they have also accepted more splitters. In the 2012-13 cycle, I received a full ride with a 164 (but admittedly, an above 75% GPA as well). McAvoy's initial advice is TCR.

withdrawn

What this thread really needs is law students insulting people on internet forums to compensate for their apparent personality defects.

I admit that it was an anecdote that doesn't necessarily mean anything for OP's chances of getting scholarship money. But the fact remains that UA has substantially increased the amount of scholarship money available over the past two cycles. Not only is that clearly apparent from looking at LSN, but I was also told that by an adcomm at UA when I applied two cycles ago. You're free to disagree with me on whether OP will get substantial money from either school, but unless you have insider knowledge, previous cycles on MyLSN prior to the 2012-13 cycle aren't an accurate representation of the amount of scholarship money UA gives now.

ftfy

you're either profoundly ignorant or a ua shill if you think 3.0/165 gets you enough money to make attending worth it
165 to ua's median 160 doesn't overcome 3.0 to ua's median 3.57
ua is an objectively awful decision at anything less than a half ride, and -.57 gpa isn't putting op on the right side of the 78/22 split

also so glad ua is increasing amount of scholly the past few years!!!!
average ua law debt 2008: $60,000
average ua law debt 2014: $91,000
lol just lol

You clearly did pretty well on your LSAT, so here's some logical reasoning: If UA just increased scholarships 2 cycles ago, would that have affected debt levels after graduation yet? Correct answer: No.

I'm not defending UA. It's a terrible decision for anyone other than those people who want to stay in Arizona, and it is only a good decision for those Arizona residents who receive substantial scholarship money. But you're wrong about scholarship money, and you're clearly too stubborn to admit that you were speaking out of your ass initially.

Here are two examples from LSN that prove my point, since I actually provide a basis for my advice instead of speaking out of my ass:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/mandrakefalls (2.9 GPA, 162 LSAT, non-URM, and received 25k per year from both UA and ASU this past cycle)
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Nateumich2014 (3.3 GPA, 165 LSAT, non-URM, and received full scholarship + living stipend from UA this past cycle - 3.3 is slightly below their 25%).

I'm sure I could find more examples, but I just wanted to post these to prove my point.

UA also decreased it's tuition to $24,381 for residents, and $29,000 for non-residents (Source: http://www.law.arizona.edu/admissions/costs.cfm). Assuming OP is an Arizona resident, he will likely get close to a full tuition scholarship.

[03152016]

it's adorable that you think two data points demonstrates jack shit

[brezz]

it's adorable that you think two data points demonstrates jack shit

It's adorable that you think your opinion is doctrine because you have 4000 posts. I'm sorry you're butthurt because you were proved wrong.

[03152016]

it's adorable that you think two data points demonstrates jack shit

It's adorable that you think your opinion is doctrine because you have 4000 posts. I'm sorry you're butthurt because you were proved wrong.

yeah you show that straw man who's boss

[03152016]

hey guys if i say i won the argument then i won
that's how it works right

thanks for making it so clear why you ended up at a toilet like u of a

[brezz]

hey guys if i say i won the argument then i won
that's how it works right

thanks for making it so clear why you ended up at a toilet like u of a

Hahaha your arguments have devolved from already poor arguments to personal attacks because you have no retort to actual evidence that you are wrong. For the record though, I declined UA's full ride and ended up at a T14.

[03152016]

it's funny how you ignore ALL my data and arguments
and then try to claim i haven't made a point

earlier it wasn't clear if you were a retard or a ua shill
mystery solved

[03152016]

hey guys if i say i won the argument then i won
that's how it works right

thanks for making it so clear why you ended up at a toilet like u of a

Hahaha your arguments have devolved from already poor arguments to personal attacks because you have no retort to actual evidence that you are wrong. For the record though, I declined UA's full ride and ended up at a T14.

sticker at mich?
LOLOLOL

[brezz]

it's funny how you ignore ALL my data and arguments
and then try to claim i haven't made a point

earlier it wasn't clear if you were a retard or a ua shill
mystery solved

The only data you provided in any of your posts was the increase in law student debt at graduation, which I very clearly did not ignore. Unless you consider doing the math of the difference between UA's median and OP's GPA to be "data," I'm pretty confident I covered everything.

And no, not sticker at Mich. I removed the school from my LSN for anonymity.

[03152016]

i provided the half ride scholly split you idiot
that's the most relevant piece of info itt

so what's next on the docket
proudly proclaiming your victory?
ignoring the bulk of my argument?
cherry picking?
anecdotal evidence?

i can't wait to see what your steel trap mind concocts next

[bl1nds1ght]

This is the dumbest argument.

OP, you should just apply to the two Arizona schools (and others) and see what happens. Either they throw money at you or they don't.

If you don't like what you see, wait a few years while getting dat work experience and then retake again. I don't think there's a definitive answer to your questions.

[03152016]

i smell a straw man a comin'

[03152016]

This is the dumbest argument.

OP, you should just apply to the two Arizona schools (and others) and see what happens. Either they throw money at you or they don't.

If you don't like what you see, wait a few years while getting dat work experience and then retake again. I don't think there's a definitive answer to your questions.

i'm not averse to op rolling the dice
but it seems a waste of time
plus once you get in, it's hard to pull away
as a heavy splitter tcr is retake

[bl1nds1ght]

This is the dumbest argument.

OP, you should just apply to the two Arizona schools (and others) and see what happens. Either they throw money at you or they don't.

If you don't like what you see, wait a few years while getting dat work experience and then retake again. I don't think there's a definitive answer to your questions.

i'm not averse to op rolling the dice
but it seems a waste of time
plus once you get in, it's hard to pull away
as a heavy splitter tcr is retake

That's a good point. Actively turning down acceptances could be mentally/emotionally difficult to do even when you're aware that it may be best not to go.

My vote is for OP to roll the dice and then cautiously evaluate the potential offers.

[brezz]

i provided the half ride scholly split you idiot
that's the most relevant piece of info itt

so what's next on the docket
proudly proclaiming your victory?
ignoring the bulk of my argument?
cherry picking?
anecdotal evidence?

i can't wait to see what your steel trap mind concocts next

It's actually 23/77 due to rounding, but that's cherry picking, so I wouldn't want to fall into that trap lol. Considering about 80 transfers though (between 2L and 3L classes), and that none of those transfers would receive a half ride, it is actually 28% of the incoming class receiving a half ride or more. Also, 2/3 of the class received scholarships, and the median scholarship amount was $14k a year. $14k is now more than a half ride for residents, and very slightly less than a half ride for non-residents, so if that holds, it is more like 1/3 of the incoming class has half rides. Regardless, you're making assumptions on how UA gives scholarship money, and you aren't backing up those assumptions with any facts.

Also, I love how you think insulting people on a forum lends credence to your statements. Ad hominem attacks only weaken your arguments.

Anyway, I agree that TCR is to retake, but I'm not sure how likely OP is to improve given that he already sat out a cycle and has taken the LSAT 3 times. If he thinks there is still room for improvement, then retaking is definitely the best choice.

[03152016]

problem is getting into ls is still seen as an accomplishment
for the most part laypeople see it as analogous to getting into med school
add to that family/friends pressuring you to attend
it's no wonder that otherwise intelligent and rational people end up attending nyls and touro

[03152016]

that was re: bl1nds1ght btw