2.4 / 178 Splitter, with softs Forum

[Jjelizon]

Hello TLS!

I am new to these forums, but have done quite a bit of personal research on the subject of admissions. I think I have a good idea of where I stand, but would really like outside opinions.

Went to a local university; it's nothing special. Did (very) bad for a few years, and was able to correct this once I realized I had a severe anxiety disorder. I didn't pay it much attention until it got very bad, and then, looking back in hindsight with a therapist, I realized that had been my problem all along. I can say I'm recovered now. I even wrote a little e-book on the subject; nothing big, just a manual that incorporates everything I learned on the journey for those who suffer.

Anyway, so my undergraduate record is bifurcated, with the first few years being a very low GPA, and the last two years being a 4.0 GPA. My university GPA is in the mid-3.0 range, but the law school GPA is 2.4. I think the 4.0 and the 178 are representative of the newly integrated me, but I know numbers count for a lot when it comes to my dream schools, and those aren't the numbers they will see.

I am a songwriter who made some money off his songs. Not much, we are talking a little less than rent money, but I had a few placements in television.

My B.S. is in Computer Science, and I also have a Masters in Computer Science now (thinking I.P. law). I got a 4.0 in my graduate classes, and I was working full time at a financial firm while completing my graduate studies at night. It has been about 3 years since I was an undergraduate.

I should probably note that I am Mexican (male), and volunteered a little outside of class for non-profits during undergraduate.

Dream schools are Duke, Chicago, and Harvard. Should I quit wasting my time fantasizing, or is there a chance?

Thank you very much!

[Mullens]

Your cycle will be difficult to predict. The common wisdom might be that you don't have much of a chance at Duke, Harvard, and Chicago because they're not generally viewed as splitter-friendly schools, but the super high LSAT, URM-status, softs, and mitigating factors with your GPA might make you the special snowflake applicant that actually gets in when you're below a school's "GPA floor." With a really good PS, DS, and GPA addendum I could see you have a non-zero chance at being admitted to H, Duke, or UChi. Apply broadly to the T14 and see what happens.

[jdmonkey]

Hello TLS!

I am new to these forums, but have done quite a bit of personal research on the subject of admissions. I think I have a good idea of where I stand, but would really like outside opinions.

Went to a local university; it's nothing special. Did (very) bad for a few years, and was able to correct this once I realized I had a severe anxiety disorder. I didn't pay it much attention until it got very bad, and then, looking back in hindsight with a therapist, I realized that had been my problem all along. I can say I'm recovered now. I even wrote a little e-book on the subject; nothing big, just a manual that incorporates everything I learned on the journey for those who suffer.

Anyway, so my undergraduate record is bifurcated, with the first few years being a very low GPA, and the last two years being a 4.0 GPA. My university GPA is in the mid-3.0 range, but the law school GPA is 2.4. I think the 4.0 and the 178 are representative of the newly integrated me, but I know numbers count for a lot when it comes to my dream schools, and those aren't the numbers they will see.

I am a songwriter who made some money off his songs. Not much, we are talking a little less than rent money, but I had a few placements in television.

My B.S. is in Computer Science, and I also have a Masters in Computer Science now (thinking I.P. law). I got a 4.0 in my graduate classes, and I was working full time at a financial firm while completing my graduate studies at night. It has been about 3 years since I was an undergraduate.

I should probably note that I am Mexican (male), and volunteered a little outside of class for non-profits during undergraduate.

Dream schools are Duke, Chicago, and Harvard. Should I quit wasting my time fantasizing, or is there a chance?

Thank you very much!

You have a 178; I'd apply to all 3 and see what happens. You will probably get to apply for free anyways with fee waivers due to the score. Then write an addendum briefly about your GPA. "I was suffering from an illness that took a great toll on my body. I have been cured and my graduate school work and LSAT are reflective of my academic ability." Don't admit to a mental illness. It is stigmatized unfairly like HIV used to be.

[03152016]

why duke and chi?

duke isn't splitter friendly but uva is
it's a peer school in the same region of the country
altho idk, actually 2.4 probably isn't getting uva but u might as well throw out an app

chi isn't splitter friendly but northwestern is
if you want chi market, nu is your best shot in the t14 given your numbers
i think you have a reasonable shot at nu
idk how the money situation would be tho

don't put all your eggs in the t14 basket
apply to strong regionals in areas u want to practice
maybe that 178 gets you some good money at wustl

[Ti Malice]

Your cycle will be difficult to predict. The common wisdom might be that you don't have much of a chance at Duke, Harvard, and Chicago because they're not generally viewed as splitter-friendly schools, but the super high LSAT, URM-status, softs, and mitigating factors with your GPA might make you the special snowflake applicant that actually gets in when you're below a school's "GPA floor." With a really good PS, DS, and GPA addendum I could see you have a non-zero chance at being admitted to H, Duke, or UChi. Apply broadly to the T14 and see what happens.

Basically what I was going to write.

Don't get your hopes up, because if your chances are non-zero at any of the three, they're only barely so. But if you craft an application that's outstanding in every other respect, it's worth taking the shots just to have no regrets down the line. Consider applying to Yale as well; they're as likely as any school to do something unorthodox in admissions. I know a non-famous non-URM who doesn't come from any special background and who got in here with an LSAT in the 150s. Another non-URM got in here with a ~3.1 last year.

As far as T14 schools go, work on building up a love of Northwestern, because they are by far the most likely of the bunch to accept you. Some people here know a lot more than I do about what people on the IP track should focus on, but I'd say be sure to apply to some decent regional schools known for shelling out loads of money for high LSATs. The GPA may well complicate things, but you could also find yourself in a position to attend law school tuition-free and end up with ~$70K of debt at repayment instead of $280-300K. Since "IP secure" people have much better options out of non-T14s than others (or so I gather), it would seem pretty crazy to pass up graduating with $210-230K less debt only to have the same job options as you would from a T14. But hopefully one of the folks knowledgeable about IP will chime in here.

[FinalFour]

Apply to all three if you would have any regrets about not doing so. Although NU is probably your best shot at T 14, you might as well see if some lower T 14 will jump on your incredible LSAT score. You might also get lucky and hit the jackpot and be the one person at Chicago or Harvard who gets in with that GPA. That would be a miracle, but its probably worth the app fee if you really want it. You should receive a URM boost which should help your odds of overcoming that GPA. If you want IP law, you should probably go to the school that is the cheapest that still gives you a feasible chance at big law since getting big law should be easier for you. How far down you should go in legal prestige/employment prospects to save money I can't answer because I don't know how much safer people who target IP really are. From what I have gathered, it is significantly safer though. Best of luck.

[Crowing]

The lowest GPA in Chicago ℅ 2016 is 3.04, which is quite a bit higher than what you've got, so I don't think there is really any chance. But you should apply to Northwestern because they do take people with low GPAs like yours.

[Jjelizon]

It's really good hearing others' opinions. Sounds like the consensus, if I apply soon, is somewhere around 0-5% chance of admission at my top 3, and that I would want to work on becoming flexible emotionally to where I should apply, because there are more common sense options out there financially.

So I see myself as having two major options from what I've read:

1.) Apply to strong regionals (I am living in Charlotte). I can throw up apps in the T14 but it's basically a lottery, and NU may consider me.

2.) Keep doing what I'm doing and distance myself from my undergraduate record further. Strengthen leadership positions and go deep into my field. These are things I would like to do anyway. Maybe I can get my chances up to 15-20% in a couple years? I had read a few years ago from a former Harvard admissions dean that computer science majors were in demand because of IP law.

There is probably some nuance I am missing, but I will think on it. Thank you.

[WokeUpInACar]

It's really good hearing others' opinions. Sounds like the consensus, if I apply soon, is somewhere around 0-5% chance of admission at my top 3, and that I would want to work on becoming flexible emotionally to where I should apply, because there are more common sense options out there financially.

So I see myself as having two major options from what I've read:

1.) Apply to strong regionals (I am living in Charlotte). I can throw up apps in the T14 but it's basically a lottery, and NU may consider me.

2.) Keep doing what I'm doing and distance myself from my undergraduate record further. Strengthen leadership positions and go deep into my field. These are things I would like to do anyway. Maybe I can get my chances up to 15-20% in a couple years? I had read a few years ago from a former Harvard admissions dean that computer science majors were in demand because of IP law.

There is probably some nuance I am missing, but I will think on it. Thank you.

You're not going to be able to change your chances at almost any school much with that GPA. You've already got all the soft factors down and an amazing LSAT, it just comes down to a school's willingness to take a GPA that low. Northwestern will almost certainly take you. Everywhere else is pretty much a crapshoot and will remain that way regardless of leadership positions you take on or whatever.

[Jjelizon]

Don't admit to a mental illness. It is stigmatized unfairly like HIV used to be.

Also, this is quite interesting, and I can believe it. It's too bad, since emotional and physical abuse during childhood is the key predictor, and thus overcoming this should be analogous to overcoming some other kind of very difficult hardship. But nobody ever said life was fair!

[yot11]

Seems to me that you have basically the best possible application that someone with that GPA can put together: (in descending order of importance)

- URM
- 178
- Substantive WE
- IP focus / MS in CS
- Strong upward trend

I'm not saying that you have a good shot at T6, but it's kind of a case where if you can't do it, then no one can with that GPA. Again, no one will be able to reliably predict your cycle. If money is a big factor for you, ED NU may be worth a shot, since I don't see you pulling that kind of money elsewhere in T14. But I would definitely blanket T14 and strong regionals in areas that you would want to work.

Disclaimer: 0L who knows nothing

[Jjelizon]

You're not going to be able to change your chances at almost any school much with that GPA. You've already got all the soft factors down and an amazing LSAT, it just comes down to a school's willingness to take a GPA that low. Northwestern will almost certainly take you. Everywhere else is pretty much a crapshoot and will remain that way regardless of leadership positions you take on or whatever.

The reason I mentioned that has to do with what I have read from Joyce Putnam Curll (served as former dean of admissions at Harvard) and other sources. In particular, she said that numerical predictors become less important as you get older and have other, more recent achievements. Once you get older, she says that your accomplishments will trump your potential.

Is this true? I don't know, but it sounds reasonable.

[yot11]

You're not going to be able to change your chances at almost any school much with that GPA. You've already got all the soft factors down and an amazing LSAT, it just comes down to a school's willingness to take a GPA that low. Northwestern will almost certainly take you. Everywhere else is pretty much a crapshoot and will remain that way regardless of leadership positions you take on or whatever.

The reason I mentioned that has to do with what I have read from Joyce Putnam Curll (served as former dean of admissions at Harvard) and other sources. In particular, she said that numerical predictors become less important as you get older and have other, more recent achievements. Once you get older, she says that your accomplishments will trump your potential.

Is this true? I don't know, but it sounds reasonable.

This is marketing buzz. Yes, they become less important. No, they will never become UNimportant. Goes from 80% --> 75% of your application (arbitrary numbers)

[03152016]

Seems to me that you have basically the best possible application that someone with that GPA can put together: (in descending order of importance)

- URM
- 178
- Substantive WE
- IP focus / MS in CS
- Strong upward trend

I'm not saying that you have a good shot at T6, but it's kind of a case where if you can't do it, then no one can with that GPA. Again, no one will be able to reliably predict your cycle. If money is a big factor for you, ED NU may be worth a shot, since I don't see you pulling that kind of money elsewhere in T14. But I would definitely blanket T14 and strong regionals in areas that you would want to work.

Disclaimer: 0L who knows nothing

zero shot at nu ed
ppl with his numbers got in off wl this cycle

[yot11]

Not saying that he has a good chance. Saying that he has a better chance than virtually anyone else at his numbers.

[pancakes3]

The masters in CS is going to help the OP if/when he doesn't get into the T14, and that 178 is going to pretty much guarantee a full ride. Then, a good L1 GPA at somewhere like Emory or GW coupled with a CS degree has a real shot at IP. His situation is much better than a typical 3.0/170 splitter.

[bizzybone1313]

If I were you OP, I would apply to the T-14, and only the T-14, year after year after year until you get admitted. I would not apply anywhere else. This strategy doesn't get discussed often on TLS. But it just seems to make decent sense to keep applying for a few years until you get into a desirable school. Schools outside the T-14 have become way too much of a risky professional bet to go to especially when a person like you has a background that could be lucrative in itself. And how the fuck did you get admitted into a master's program with that horrendous undergrad GPA? You must have killed the GRE too.

[03152016]

If I were you OP, I would apply to the T-14, and only the T-14, year after year after year until you get admitted. I would not apply anywhere else. This strategy doesn't get discussed often on TLS. But it just seems to make decent sense to keep applying for a few years until you get into a desirable school. Schools outside the T-14 have become way too much of a risky professional bet to go to especially when a person like you has a background that could be lucrative in itself. And how the fuck did you get admitted into a master's program with that horrendous undergrad GPA? You must have killed the GRE too.

wat

1 he wants ip, which lessens the importance of school prestige

2 if he gets t14 it'll b nu, he has very little chance newhere else
he shouldn't just count on one school

3 he will gets nu it will be at sticker
nu is not worth sticker (no school is rly)

4 there are plenty of 'desirable' schools outside of t14
hypothetically, if you wanted tx bl, you'd choose gulc sticker over ut $$?
if so, u r an idiot

[bizzybone1313]

If I were you OP, I would apply to the T-14, and only the T-14, year after year after year until you get admitted. I would not apply anywhere else. This strategy doesn't get discussed often on TLS. But it just seems to make decent sense to keep applying for a few years until you get into a desirable school. Schools outside the T-14 have become way too much of a risky professional bet to go to especially when a person like you has a background that could be lucrative in itself. And how the fuck did you get admitted into a master's program with that horrendous undergrad GPA? You must have killed the GRE too.

wat

1 he wants ip, which lessens the importance of school prestige

2 if he gets t14 it'll b nu, he has very little chance newhere else
he shouldn't just count on one school

3 he will gets nu it will be at sticker
nu is not worth sticker (no school is rly)

4 there are plenty of 'desirable' schools outside of t14
hypothetically, if you wanted tx bl, you'd choose gulc sticker over ut $$?
if so, u r an idiot

1- His computer science background makes him easily able to snag 60k+ job offers right now and it doesn't seem wise to gamble all of that away at some T-30ish school.

2- He may be able to squeeze some $$$ out of some T-14 schools.
I doubt only NU will admit him. He has an outside shot at some other schools.

3- OP- I highly recommend you go to jdunderground.com and pose this same scenario to those guys. Most of them will tell you going to a school outside of the T-14 is a really, really bad idea.

[runinthefront]

.

[Jjelizon]

If I were you OP, I would apply to the T-14, and only the T-14, year after year after year until you get admitted. I would not apply anywhere else. This strategy doesn't get discussed often on TLS. But it just seems to make decent sense to keep applying for a few years until you get into a desirable school. Schools outside the T-14 have become way too much of a risky professional bet to go to especially when a person like you has a background that could be lucrative in itself. And how the fuck did you get admitted into a master's program with that horrendous undergrad GPA? You must have killed the GRE too.

wat

1 he wants ip, which lessens the importance of school prestige

2 if he gets t14 it'll b nu, he has very little chance newhere else
he shouldn't just count on one school

3 he will gets nu it will be at sticker
nu is not worth sticker (no school is rly)

4 there are plenty of 'desirable' schools outside of t14
hypothetically, if you wanted tx bl, you'd choose gulc sticker over ut $$?
if so, u r an idiot

1- His computer science background makes him easily able to snag 60k+ job offers right now and it doesn't seem wise to gamble all of that away at some T-30ish school.

2- He may be able to squeeze some $$$ out of some T-14 schools.
I doubt only NU will admit him. He has an outside shot at some other schools.

3- OP- I highly recommend you go to jdunderground.com and pose this same scenario to those guys. Most of them will tell you going to a school outside of the T-14 is a really, really bad idea.

What you've said here definitely agrees with my perspective. I am trying to be open to other viewpoints though; I didn't just come here to further confirm my own bias.

I have thoughts on a few points that have been raised:

The more cynical opinions seem to put a huge burden on the GPA number, and this is probably because you statistically don't see my numbers getting admitted into the T6 when looking; however, I was under the impression that the top schools are more inelastic to market forces because of their unparalleled access to candidates with great numbers (and maybe other reasons). My conclusion from this is that they can choose a few candidates outside the normal range who they would otherwise deem a stellar addition to the class.

It is a reality that I am already almost making 80K after bonuses. This in of itself gives me more of a "top school or bust" attitude (which may be irrational). I am not positive that I could make up the opportunity cost of going to certain law schools. I would be forgoing that salary for three years; plus any potential debt; plus intangibles such as moving up in my company. If I got into a school that I've wanted to attend for over 5 years (see my forum name start date), then money would not be as important of a factor to me.

All of that said, it would be hard to look myself in the mirror if I chose a school merely for its prestige over a slightly lower ranked school that offered significant scholarship money.

I suppose too much more reflection on what I would do given theoretical acceptances/ denials starts to fit under the umbrella of "worry" rather than "constructive planning."

Thanks for the advice.

[hawk5]

You should really think about why you want law school. The consensus on here seems to be you can get T14, for the right price, and your other options aren't great then law school might be worth it (I get that this might be a little different for IP). With a 2.4 the chances of getting T14 at the right price seems slim. Then you bring in the fact that your making like $80k a year and you have a marketable degree/masters. Yes, you could bump that salary up to $160k for a few years with the right school, but only after taking on $150-$250k in debt and with no job security. You would have the same purchasing power, a more unstable career, a potentially much worse work-life balance, and at least $300k in lost opportunity costs. You would have to really want to be a lawyer. I met one girl on my law school hunt that had a job at google and was going to BU law. I just didn't get it, you would have to drag me out of a job at google.

[JamMasterJ]

OP you should get in touch with MA student orgs at all of the T14 and see if they can go to bat for you. For instance, my friend is on an affinity group board and has a little (emphasis on little) sway with the admissions committee. I really wouldn't be shocked if a compelling story got you into some of the T10.


Ppl who are saying you have no chance at X school (when that school isn't HY or S) really have no clue what they're talking about because you are a truly unique candidate.