166 cc dropout looking to turn it around in 4 year college Forum

[csprizzle38]

Please help me!

Here’s my story: I’m a 22 year old African American who “unofficially withdrew” from community college two years ago, with the consequence that my GPA became 1.5 (7 zeroes total). In the meantime, I’ve become passionate about becoming a litigator, scoring 166 on the June LSAT. I'll redeem my GPA this fall by retaking courses I failed at the community college, and then I'll transfer to the University of Maine, where I'll spend four years as a History major in the Honors College—before applying to law schools that feed Big Law. I’m looking for A New Beginning…

Until yesterday I was unaware that my junior college marks are permanent in the eyes of LSAC’s GPA formula. I’ve crunched the numbers, and it would seem that, even assuming I maintain a perfect 4.0 through 138 credits worth of courses, my "official" GPA will come to 3.4 flat!

Here’s my question: In your view, would (1) getting a letter of recommendation from a community college instructor whose course I retake, (2) pointing out that every grade below an ‘A-’ occurred six years ago and that I used the LSAT to motivate myself to excel, (3) graduating Phi Beta Kappa/summa cum laude, (4) a 166 LSAT, and (5) being black secure me a *legitimate* shot at Penn/UVA/NYU/Chicago?

(Forecasting how I’ll be received at top law schools is complicated by the fact that, if I do pull all of this off, my story will be utterly anomalous. Indeed, I can’t find one precedent I can cite to involving a ‘D’ student in community college who subsequently completed *four years* as an ‘A’ student at a serious college—and who scored over 165 on the LSAT *before* doing so.)

[FSK]

You're going to need a retake. Try to get 170+. Once you get that and grades in pocket, you'll have a better shot & can better evaluate your position.

[retaking23]

Four years is a long time and I'm sure that if you still apply to law school then, the cc blemish (which will be six years removed) will not hurt you too much assuming you pick up your grades and explain the situation in your application. You have a lot of good things as far as admissions goes already, mainly your AA male status and a 166 LSAT to boot which I'm sure you can increase even more if you retake between now and when you apply. Good luck.

[csprizzle38]

Well, I did underperform on the Logic Games in June, but the thing is: I'm not confident it'll go up to a 170+, and unless that changes, the upside potential of retaking (167-169) can't justify the downside risk (163-166). Or so it seems to me... I mean, my only weakness is AR, on which I almost always score 14-17. I don't see that changing, and it would be virtually impossible to improve LR and RC beyond my current 70 (+/- 3) per test... NOBODY can count on scoring, like, 75/77 on those three sections combined.

[gnomgnomuch]

Your URM status will definitely help you, though assuming you have a 4.0 from here on out, and you get a 3.4, you'll be out at HYS almost definitively. Your best bet would be to study and retake the LSAT and break 170, as that would put you in the top 50 or so African Americans to hit that score, which would make you eligible for merit aid at some of the lower t-14's like Cornell.

Before you give up hope, try and see if you can get a retroactive withdrawal for your classes - it's rare, but possible.

Good luck, and kudos, for going back to school.

[gnomgnomuch]

Well, I did underperform on the Logic Games in June, but the thing is: I'm not confident it'll go up to a 170+, and unless that changes, the upside potential of retaking (167-169) can't justify the downside risk (163-166). Or so it seems to me... I mean, my only weakness is AR, on which I almost always score 14-17. I don't see that changing, and it would be virtually impossible to improve LR and RC beyond my current 70 (+/- 3) per test... NOBODY can count on scoring, like, 75/77 on those three sections combined.

LG is the easiest section to improve on, i started 2/23 on my diagnostic, and now I'm going 15-20/23. Go to 7sage.com and start drilling the games you have the most problems with. You're in an enviable position in that you already have the hardest sections of the test down.

[csprizzle38]

Yeah, I don't really want to go H/Y/S. I'm going to law school solely to become a general litigator in New York. (But I frankly don't want NYU or Fordham because, ironically, I hate the idea of being a law student there... Not sure why. I really want Penn, I think.)

And thank you for the encouragement anent turning my life around!

As to Logic Games... haha... I don't know man. I've never had strong spatial skills, and I've done a TON of them.

[csprizzle38]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the impact a simple addendum would have on how admissions officers interpret the cc marks? To echo retaking123, 6 years will have been a long-ass time...

[csprizzle38]

Oh, and just to clarify: I'm worried about this now not because I'm jumping the gun or making wild assumptions about my future performance, but because my belief that I'll be able to go to an elite law school is what's *motivating* me to go back to college haha... I figured that if I scored over 165, and thereby guaranteed that summa/Phi Beta Kappa would be sufficient for admission to Penn/UVA/Chicago, I would be relentlessly determined to maintain perfect grades throughout undergrad...

Bottom line: there is a lot at stake.

[csprizzle38]

Here's the four year UMaine course schedule I refined most recently last week... before I learned that executing it could very well be completely fu**ing pointless. (Yes, I've verified that they're all "regularly offered" in the corresponding semester.) I'd appreciate any critiques, suggestions, comments.

FRESHMAN YEAR

2nd semester
Roman History (HTY 402)
History of Modern Philosophy (PHI 312)
Foundations of Lit. Analysis (ENG 170)
Classical Art + Architecture (ARH 251)
Principles of Org. + Man. (BUA 325)

summer semester
European Civilization I (HTY 105)
European Civilization II (HTY 106)
Financial Accounting (BUA 201)
Persuasive/Analytical Writing (ENG 212)

SOPHOMORE YEAR

1st semester
History of Greece (HTY 455)
History of Ancient Philosophy (PHI 250)
Accelerated Intro. Economics (ECO 410)
Accelerated French I (FRE 217)
Civilizations I (HON 110)

2nd semester
Medieval Civilization (HTY 202)
Intermediate Macro (ECO 321)
The Act of Interpretation (ENG 221)
Accelerated French II (FRE 218)
Civilizations II (HON 111)

JUNIOR YEAR

1st semester
America to Civil (HTY 507) (Graduate Level)
Formal Logic (PHI 152)
Karl Marx (PHI 152)
Business Finance (BUA 350)
Civilizations III (HON 211)

2nd semester
19th Century Europe (HTY 408)
History of Ideas (HTY 432)
Financial Institutions (BUA 352)
Money and Banking (ECO 353)
Currents and Contexts (HON 170)
Civilizations IV (HON 212)

SENIOR YEAR:

1st semester
20th Century Amer. I (HTY 467)
20th Century Europe I (HTY 409)
Cultural Connections (HON 188)
Honors Thesis I (HON 498)

2nd semester
20th Century Amer. II (HTY 468)
20th Century Europe II (HTY 410)
Senior History Seminar (HTY 498)
Honors Tutorial (HON 310)
Honors Thesis II (HON 499)

[180kickflip]

What are you going to do if law school doesn't work out, interest you, admit you where you want?

If you get a useless liberal arts degree I feel like you're setting yourself up for failure (or at least eliminating some potentially very valuable exit strategies). Major in something that is likely to have at least ok employment prospects, but that you can get As in if you work your ass off. Like no CS or engineering, but maybe econ, marketing, or whatever the easiest business degree they offer is. Not saying jobs will necessarily be easy to get anywhere, but at least get a degree where you've got a fighting chance at a decent non-law outcome.

lots of people seem to end up miserable at (or after) law school cuz they went just because they didn't think they had any other options. Right now is when you work to avoid becoming that guy.

[csprizzle38]

What are you going to do if law school doesn't work out, interest you, admit you where you want?

If you get a useless liberal arts degree I feel like you're setting yourself up for failure (or at least eliminating some potentially very valuable exit strategies). Major in something that is likely to have at least ok employment prospects, but that you can get As in if you work your ass off. Like no CS or engineering, but maybe econ, marketing, or whatever the easiest business degree they offer is. Not saying jobs will necessarily be easy to get anywhere, but at least get a degree where you've got a fighting chance at a decent non-law outcome.

lots of people seem to end up miserable at (or after) law school cuz they went just because they didn't think they had any other options. Right now is when you work to avoid becoming that guy.

That's not a variable, as far as I'm concerned.

First, I wouldn't have created that course schedule to begin with if my passion for becoming a Big Law litigator weren't a fait accompli; and it wouldn't be a fait accompli if I lacked a firm grasp of what such a career path entails. Moreover, Ive considered the costs and benefits of pursuing an education aimed at turning me into, to borrow a line from two 1905 Cravath Partners, "a Phi Beta Kappa man" (and ideal Cravath associate). My conclusion: net positive.

Second, even if, counterfactually, it were possible that I'll turn out not to be cut out for corporate litigation, I could use my summa History degree (and test scores) as a springboard into a decent MBA program. (More broadly, the point is that *all* non-engineering undergrad work is "useless" if you're looking to make more than $40,000 per.)

Like a good lawyer, I should try to put a positive spin on this less-than-ideal situation: (1) Whereas before I wanted to earn straight A's to maximize my chances at Penn/UVA/Chicago, now I *need* to earn them to have a strong chance, which will motivate me all the more. (2) It'll only seem daunting until I finish *first* semester with a 4.0, after which it will become gravy to focus on conquering my goal one semester at a time. (3) If I pull it off, my URM status will incline admissions officers to control for my community college marks when they make their decisions.

[Ti Malice]

Shit. I had written out a post for you, but my browser crashed. I'll rewrite it sometime in the next couple of days.

Edited to add: Never mind. I have nothing to add to what the several posters after me have said.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Your schedule really doesn't matter; for the purposes of law school, your major doesn't matter and what classes you take doesn't matter. So take what works for you (though I'd be surprised if you can actually plan 4 years at this point, despite being told courses are "regularly" offered - that doesn't mean much).

You can write an addendum, and it will probably help somewhat, but the issue is that your UGPA is what law schools report to USNWR to determine their place in the rankings. This is why people suggest getting your LSAT as high as possible, because schools are more likely to look past a less-good GPA if they can collect a high LSAT to help their score in the rankings.

MBA programs aren't really very helpful for people coming straight out of undergrad - they're designed for people who have work experience in business rather than for undergrads.

[gnomgnomuch]

Here's the four year UMaine course schedule I refined most recently last week... before I learned that executing it could very well be completely fu**ing pointless. (Yes, I've verified that they're all "regularly offered" in the corresponding semester.) I'd appreciate any critiques, suggestions, comments.

FRESHMAN YEAR

2nd semester
Roman History (HTY 402)
History of Modern Philosophy (PHI 312)
Foundations of Lit. Analysis (ENG 170)
Classical Art + Architecture (ARH 251)
Principles of Org. + Man. (BUA 325)

summer semester
European Civilization I (HTY 105)
European Civilization II (HTY 106)
Financial Accounting (BUA 201)
Persuasive/Analytical Writing (ENG 212)

SOPHOMORE YEAR

1st semester
History of Greece (HTY 455)
History of Ancient Philosophy (PHI 250)
Accelerated Intro. Economics (ECO 410)
Accelerated French I (FRE 217)
Civilizations I (HON 110)

2nd semester
Medieval Civilization (HTY 202)
Intermediate Macro (ECO 321)
The Act of Interpretation (ENG 221)
Accelerated French II (FRE 218)
Civilizations II (HON 111)

JUNIOR YEAR

1st semester
America to Civil (HTY 507) (Graduate Level)
Formal Logic (PHI 152)
Karl Marx (PHI 152)
Business Finance (BUA 350)
Civilizations III (HON 211)

2nd semester
19th Century Europe (HTY 408)
History of Ideas (HTY 432)
Financial Institutions (BUA 352)
Money and Banking (ECO 353)
Currents and Contexts (HON 170)
Civilizations IV (HON 212)

SENIOR YEAR:

1st semester
20th Century Amer. I (HTY 467)
20th Century Europe I (HTY 409)
Cultural Connections (HON 188)
Honors Thesis I (HON 498)

2nd semester
20th Century Amer. II (HTY 468)
20th Century Europe II (HTY 410)
Senior History Seminar (HTY 498)
Honors Tutorial (HON 310)
Honors Thesis II (HON 499)

o_______________O

Woah. Slow down. First off, you cant even guarantee that schedule will work out, I've spent 3 years trying to get into a simple Chem class, and just got into it.

Second, If you're going to go with History, don't. It sounds harsh, but i am a Poli Sci major, and im regretting it already (my job options coming out off Undergrad are severely limited.) If you're gonna do something, do econ. You might not be set for LS after you graduate. I chose Poli sci (originally finance), because i took Calc 2 with business applications and got a C on it, and realized that anything to do with math would screw me over GPA wise.Plus, i loved poli sci and I knew i could max out my GPA with a Poli Sci Major, and i also knew i wanted Law 100% (by interacting with lawyers, by shadowing them, by interning at a law firm, + talking to plenty of law students), i decided that the risk in me suddenly changing my mind was smaller than me screwing my GPA.

Third. Do some serious, serious research on LS's. Coming here is a GREAT start. Before i discovered TLS, i was honestly considering attending Cardozo law after undergrad. Your interests might change, it happens all the time. I'm interning in a immigration division this summer. At first, i thought it would SUCK. I love it now, its genuinely interesting to me, two years ago, id have prob killed myself from the type of work i now enjoy.

Basically my advice (such as it is) is this:

1) Keep your options open.
2) If you have a goal - LS - that's great, stick to it. But don't make it your end all, have contingency plans.
3) Get some experience. In HS i wanted to do real estate. I busted my ass off, and got an internship with a real estate firm. I was pretty good, they had me doing actual substantive work....and i absolutely hated it. You never know, that might happen to you, before it does, you might want to get some experience in the field you say you're going to spend the rest of your life in.
4) Don't pigeon hole yourself. If you love history, that's great, take some electives, make it your minor, but your major should be something that can secure you gainful employment (or at least doesn't preclude that option) without a masters degree (and its still hard to get a job, even with a masters degree.)

This is an incredibly long winded post... so im just gonna stop typing now.... but GL, OP.

[csprizzle38]

I respectfully disagree.

1.) Summa cum laude and Phi beta Kappa are pluses---to the minds of law Partners and thus me.

http://www.wlrk.com/SJLewis/

http://www.cravath.com/mrosenberg/
http://www.paulweiss.com/professionals/ ... -karp.aspx
http://www.davispolk.com/lawyers/sarah-solum/
http://www.skadden.com/professionals/su ... curtis.pdf

2.) it's not true that my schedule is irrelevant: Getting into a top-flight program with a 166-169 LSAT and seven zeroes on my old junior college transcript will only happen provided that admissions officials focus on my new four-year transcript, which will only succeed in wowing them if I take a spate of advanced courses and graduate summa/Phi Beta Kappa. So scheduling does matter, at least in my case.

3.) If I enter an MBA program, I'll have already given up on life, which is to say I won't be applying to HBS or Wharton hahah. It'll be online probably.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No, seriously, schools don't care what courses you take. Complete a major at an accredited school, and you're good. You don't need to micromanage for the sake of law schools.

(okay, Yale might care, but, respectfully, that's probably not in the cards.)

[csprizzle38]

No, seriously, schools don't care what courses you take. Complete a major at an accredited school, and you're good. You don't need to micromanage for the sake of law schools.

(okay, Yale might care, but, respectfully, that's probably not in the cards.)

1.) Read the paragraph located under the heading, "in addition to GPA and LSAT, what factors are most important to the admissions committee?"
https://www.law.upenn.edu/admissions/jd ... hp#letters

2.) Again: In my case---someone whose only chance at getting into Penn hinges on their willingness to let his four-year transcript offset his junior college transcript---"what classes I take" could *obviously* tip the scale one way or the other. Put yourself in the shoes of admissions: If the ethos of a prospective URM's case for admission is, "You should ignore my community college marks because I did amazingly well in real college," could you say with a straight face that your receptiveness or lack thereof wouldn't be largely a function of "what courses he took"? Of course not! Compare my schedule with a GPA Doppelgänger comprised entirely of 100/200 level courses.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Law school websites aren't exactly objective. All schools say they consider each application holistically, and I do think there are things besides GPA and LSAT that can make a good or bad application. But the data that's available suggests that probably 90-95% of success is based on GPA/LSAT numbers. Then you have your PS, LORs, and general resume. The specific courses you take are the tiniest part of your application and not worth micromanaging in this way.

Beyond that, though, what makes up a "good" schedule will vary depending on who you talk to. I could see an argument that it's best to avoid a transcript full of Subject 101 courses. But beyond that, it doesn't matter. Your schedule presents a perfectly decent lineup for a history major. Plenty of people would say a history major isn't very hard, compared to an econ major or STEM major, but is probably harder than sociology or elementary ed (note: I'm not endorsing these arguments, but they're fairly popular). Other people will disagree. But again, schools don't care what you major in. They will care that you do well in college as compared to your cc, sure, but which courses you do well in is really not a thing that matters. Every year there are lots of people who come onto this site sure that their 3.3 in electrical engineering trumps a 3.9 in English, and it's just not the case. Nothing about the numbers supports the idea that your major (and hence which courses you take) matters.

[csprizzle38]

90% of applicants are white. I'm a URM with a 166 and (in the future) a summa degree in history Phi Beta Kappa from an Honors Collehe---with a *technical* GPA of 3.3-3.4 since I "unofficially withdrew" from community college. Thus, I won't be getting in pursuant to the standard criteria---the "numbers game"--*anyway*; indeed, if I get in, it will be because I'm able to prevail on them that my real transcript should offset blowing off bio 101 when I was nineteen and uninspired. (It's a miscarriage of justice that SOP makes it impossible for a college valedictorian to divest herself from JC grades, but I digress.)

So your points about the data, though valid in the main, are moot as applied to me. Whereas for most taking truly rigorous courses isn't necessary to go to Penn, for me it is. (Well, it greatly increases the probability, anyway.) That's all I claimed.

Oh, and by the way: I'm not micromanaging my courses solely for the sake of law school. Rather, I've organized my history sequence by interest/chronology/requirements, chosen my electives based on Phi Beta Kappa requirements, Honors College requirements, and my pet interest in corporate finance. (And over 95% of them will indeed be offered when I plan to take them; virtually every one is a core class.)

(I'm typing on my mom's IPad. My fingers are frighten' exhausted. Goodnight haha)

[cron1834]

90% of applicants are white. I'm a URM with a 166 and (in the future) a summa degree in history Phi Beta Kappa from an Honors Collehe---with a *technical* GPA of 3.3-3.4 since I "unofficially withdrew" from community college. Thus, I won't be getting in pursuant to the standard criteria---the "numbers game"--*anyway*; indeed, if I get in, it will be because I'm able to prevail on them that my real transcript should offset blowing off bio 101 when I was nineteen and uninspired. (It's a miscarriage of justice that SOP makes it impossible for a college valedictorian to divest herself from JC grades, but I digress.)

So your points about the data, though valid in the main, are moot as applied to me. Whereas for most taking truly rigorous courses isn't necessary to go to Penn, for me it is. (Well, it greatly increases the probability, anyway.) That's all I claimed.

Oh, and by the way: I'm not micromanaging my courses solely for the sake of law school. Rather, I've organized my history sequence by interest/chronology/requirements, chosen my electives based on Phi Beta Kappa requirements, Honors College requirements, and my pet interest in corporate finance. (And over 95% of them will indeed be offered when I plan to take them; virtually every one is a core class.)

(I'm typing on my mom's IPad. My fingers are frighten' exhausted. Goodnight haha)

Dude, stop writing like this. Ugh.

More importantly: wtf, man? People who have successfully gone through the admissions process are telling you what matters, and you're willfully ignoring it. If you graduate coiff at Stanford like the first gal you linked to, or top 10 at Penn (or whatever), nobody is going to give two shits how many 400 level classes you took at Random State U. You already lost the UG prestige game by going to a run of the mill school (as I did), so just get the highest GPA possible. The rest is bullshit.

Also, as a former social sciences instructor, your schedule is awful. Why on earth would any historian take History of Rome prior to History of Greece? Or EuroCiv 1 and 2 simultaneously? I almost think you're trolling us here.

[fratstar1]

2 many big werds.

The only reason being in phi betta kappa is a good idea is because of the gpa prerequisites to get in. Your overvaluing a very odd set of principles that you've developed at the expense of what's pragmatically important for your admissions and career options.

[rad lulz]

.

[chuckbass]

~*special snowflake*~

[A. Nony Mouse]

90% of applicants are white. I'm a URM with a 166 and (in the future) a summa degree in history Phi Beta Kappa from an Honors Collehe---with a *technical* GPA of 3.3-3.4 since I "unofficially withdrew" from community college. Thus, I won't be getting in pursuant to the standard criteria---the "numbers game"--*anyway*; indeed, if I get in, it will be because I'm able to prevail on them that my real transcript should offset blowing off bio 101 when I was nineteen and uninspired. (It's a miscarriage of justice that SOP makes it impossible for a college valedictorian to divest herself from JC grades, but I digress.)

So your points about the data, though valid in the main, are moot as applied to me. Whereas for most taking truly rigorous courses isn't necessary to go to Penn, for me it is. (Well, it greatly increases the probability, anyway.) That's all I claimed.

So, it pains me to say this since I used to teach history, but history courses don't scream rigor. They don't necessarily scream puff courses, either (usually there's a fair amount of reading and writing), but majoring in history and therefore taking a lot of history courses is not going to set you apart from the herd. There are a gazillion history majors who go to law school (it's probably the next most generic "law school major" after political science) and perforce they take a lot of history courses. You've put together a more "classical," traditional Western-Civ-y/great books line up, but that's the only thing that seems to distinguish what you're doing, and again, that doesn't say rigor (or not rigor; they're just some history courses).

Now, like I said, it's not going to hurt you to do this at all, because your major doesn't matter for law school admissions. So your schedule is perfectly fine, but it doesn't need vetting. And if you're taking these classes for personal interest and so on, why post your schedule for comment to begin with?

Lastly, I really do wish you well. But you might want to start taking college courses and getting all As in all of them for 4 years before you make law school plans. I'm not at all suggesting you can't do so, but you're kind of putting the cart before the horse. And have you considered the timeline given that LSAT scores expire? (I don't think schools care when you took the LSAT in the sense of being impressed that you took it before going to 4-year college.)