172/3.59/Military T14/T6 Chances? Retake? Forum

[c.therese]

172 LSAT (1st take)
3.59 GPA from Service Academy with double major
Military, Combat Deployment
Non-URM

What are my chances for T14? To even have a shot at T6, do I need to retake the LSAT?

Thanks in advance.

[kathj06]

nearly-identical stats (same LSAT, slightly lower GPA), strong softs but not as strong as yours, and got in to CCN, one of which gave me $. No HYS though. If your goal is just any one of the T6 then I really don't think you need to retake. But for HYS/more $ at CCN, probably worth it.

[BuddyHoller]

Very similar stats with good softs, but not military. I was in at one of CCN and waitlisted by the other two. No from HYS.

[daleearnhardt123]

Very similar stats with good softs, but not military. I was in at one of CCN and waitlisted by the other two. No from HYS.

lol well this is completely useless. "Military" is a major factor dude. Close (military) friend of mine had similar GPA, considerably weaker LSAT, got one of MVB w cash. Blanket the T-14 and enjoy what should be a great cycle.

[c.therese]

Thank you for the replies, guys. Just trying to figure out if a retake in Sep would be beneficial given how much of a liability my GPA is for T6.

[FSK]

Will you finish with any debt, considering your military service? If you won't, you might want to retake to better your chances at HYS. If you will have debt, retake to have a better shot at lower T14 with full tuition.

[c.therese]

Will you finish with any debt, considering your military service? If you won't, you might want to retake to better your chances at HYS. If you will have debt, retake to have a better shot at lower T14 with full tuition.

No debt, fortunately. I think I could improve with a few additional months of studying, but the stats seem to be against me for improving a 172 on a retake. There's just always that fear that I could do worse on the second take...

[c.therese]

Well, I'll probably start studying again and then see how I feel. Anyone recommend against a retake?

[TheSpanishMain]

Also military with deployments. Had a 3.3 and a 168 and got UVA, NU, and Georgetown with money. I bet you get at least one of CCN and everything on down ( maybe not Berkeley). If you're Post 911 eligible, you're in a terrific spot

[c.therese]

Also military with deployments. Had a 3.3 and a 168 and got UVA, NU, and Georgetown with money. I bet you get at least one of CCN and everything on down ( maybe not Berkeley). If you're Post 911 eligible, you're in a terrific spot

That's awesome! Thank you for the feedback.

[TheJanitor6203]

I think your numbers are great in combination with being a veteran. I don't think you should retake. That 172 is going to get you into a lot of the T14. I also wouldn't worry too much about your GPA. It may keep you out of HYS but I think you may even still have a shot there as well. Some people think that admissions don't take service academy GPA's into account but I think they do to some extent. I'm sure you'll do fine. Good luck.

[c.therese]

I think your numbers are great in combination with being a veteran. I don't think you should retake. That 172 is going to get you into a lot of the T14. I also wouldn't worry too much about your GPA. It may keep you out of HYS but I think you may even still have a shot there as well. Some people think that admissions don't take service academy GPA's into account but I think they do to some extent. I'm sure you'll do fine. Good luck.

Thanks, I've been wondering if going to a Service Academy would be a factor they would consider with my GPA, but didn't want to count on it helping me too much.

[Ramius]

Totally anecdotal, but as a fellow academy graduate, the T14 was pretty forgiving for a lackluster gpa. Could've been the military service too, but either way, being <25th gpa didn't kill me.

[Ti Malice]

What are my chances for T14? To even have a shot at T6, do I need to retake the LSAT?

No, you're a virtual lock for at least one T6 (barring any C&F issues). You're almost certainly in at NYU, and your odds are strong for Columbia. Chicago's a bit less predictable, but you have a good shot there as well.

Improving your LSAT would give you a better shot at Harvard and Stanford. Unless you received a Silver Star or something, your GPA is likely too low for Yale regardless of LSAT (even though a 3.59 at a service academy is no easy feat).

[c.therese]

What are my chances for T14? To even have a shot at T6, do I need to retake the LSAT?

No, you're a virtual lock for at least one T6 (barring any C&F issues). You're almost certainly in at NYU, and your odds are strong for Columbia. Chicago's a bit less predictable, but you have a good shot there as well.

Improving your LSAT would give you a better shot at Harvard and Stanford. Unless you received a Silver Star or something, your GPA is likely too low for Yale regardless of LSAT (even though a 3.59 at a service academy is no easy feat).

Thank you for the response! No C&F issues. May retake just to have a shot at H/S.

[winstonsalem]

You are absolutely going to get in to most of the T14, and I believe you should set your sights primarily on the T6. As a fellow service academy grad with a 3.59, I can tell you that schools will be very forgiving of your GPA. They understand that your GPA is not the same as at other schools. Here's what Yale's Dean of Admissions, Asha Rangappa, has to say about this:

"The Law School Admissions Council (LSAC) — which compiles the numerical data on each law school applicant — provides, in addition to a student’s cumulative GPA, the percentile rank of that student’s GPA as compared with other applicants to law school from that same institution within the last three years. In other words, a law school admissions officer can (or should) see the difference between, say, a 3.7 at West Point (which would place that student in the upper 90th percentile) and a 3.7 at a school that is prestigious but has a lot of grade inflation (I won’t name names but a 3.7 can be as low as the 60th percentile at some very elite schools)."

And from Harvard's former admissions officer Karen Buttenbaum:

"The best way to illustrate this is with my favorite extremes: Harvard College (where the GPA college mean is upward of 3.5) and any US military academy (where the GCM is about 3.0). Someone with a 3.5 from Harvard is below the 50th percentile, where a 3.5 from West Point might be the top 15-20% of their class."

Your GPA will be fine to get you into any school. Your LSAT is already good, but you should retake until you get a 175+. If you were to get a 175+, I think you'd be in the running for a Hamilton/Rubenstein, in at HYS, and you'd be a lock for full-tuition scholarships at some of the rest of the T14. Schools absolutely do not care about multiple LSAT scores. They are desperate to keep their medians high, so a 175+ would make you an extremely valuable candidate.

One other point to consider is that HYS are interested in recruiting conservatives as well as military candidates. In one blog post, Asha says the following:

"For example, it's important to us as an institution to have a variety of viewpoints represented in order to foster robust and challenging classroom discussion -- to this end, we're very interested in having ideological diversity in each class. ... Another group of people from whom we like to see applications is our servicemen and -women. I personally have a soft spot for service academies, but my attempts to recruit on their campuses were unsuccessful."

To these top schools, military candidates enhance the classroom experience and are good bets to be highly employable. If you are also a conservative, these schools believe that you have a decent chance of clerking for a judge that prefers conservative clerks, hence you will boost the school's clerkship rate. I know that Yale especially is concerned about getting more conservatives and more military candidates. Normally the school gets around three vets in each class, but they accepted ten vets into the '17 class. If you are conservative, don't go overboard in signaling it on your application, but know that you shouldn't be afraid that it will hurt you.

Lastly, here are some service academy/vet profiles from LSN that can show you different outcomes for vets:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ACcommando
3.85, 174, service academy, got Yale, Columbia, UVA, Georgetown

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bahama
3.6, 171 service academy, got H, S, Chi, NYU, Penn, UVA, NW, Duke, Berkeley, Michigan

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/SchusterFlook
3.6, 171, service academy, NYU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Chicago, UPenn, UVA

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/WAGB20
3.56, 163, service academy, Berkeley

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/lbr3
3.58, 164, service academy, Georgetown

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/matthewsean85
3.43, 168, service academy, Northwestern, Berkeley, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Georgetown, UCLA,

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/alabamagene
3.17, 163, service academy, Alabama

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Drew
3.9, 171, service academy, Northwestern, Chicago, Michigan

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/goreman
3.79, 167, service academy, Vanderbilt, Michigan, Georgetown, his profile shows Harvard as pending, but he went to Harvard

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nuke
3.6, 168, service academy, UT Austin, UCLA

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jdough03
3.26, 174, service academy, Northwestern, Georgetown, UCLA, UVA, Michigan




http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Seaborn'16
3.5, 175, non-service academy, Stanford, Columbia, UVA, NYU, Duke, UPenn, Chi

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/twobitrye
3.42, 170, non-service academy, Berkeley, Georgetown, UPenn, Cornell, NW, NYU, UVA, Mich

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/r-t87
3.99, 166, non-service academy, Chicago, Duke, Georgetown, Michigan, Cornell

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/usafgirl
3.56, 176, non-service academy, NYU, Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, Duke, Berkeley, Georgetown

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/thedave29
3.61, 169, non-service academy, UPenn, UVA, Cornell, Georgetown, Cornell

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ArmytoLaw
3.65, 167, non-service academy, Georgetown, GW