4 years post undergrad, working on PhD Forum

[mostheinous]

Hi all,

I'm really thinking of applying to law school after I finish my PhD in Economics given my interest in legal academia. So, here are my stats:

- PhD in Economics from top 15 program (economics PhD admission is quite difficult -- my school had ~4% acceptance this year with ~800 applicants around the world; Econ PhD's requires perfect GRE Q scores and A's in high level undergrad math courses)

- 3.78 GPA in undergrad from top 10 liberal arts college (does rank of undergrad matter?) -- major was Economics and minor was Math
- Work as economic consultant for large development organizations (UN, World Bank, that kind of thing)
- interest in legal academia, in fact worked for law school professor (not sure how much this matters)
- Varsity athlete in college (4X letterman; again, not sure how much this matters)

I haven't taken the LSAT officially, but I did take it cold once and got a 163. I took a few practice tests and was scoring in the low 170's a few months after, but that was quite a while ago and practice tests always go more smoothly than the real thing.

So my questions:

1. Assuming I got a 170, what kind of schools would I be looking at?
2. What LSAT score would I need to be competitive to get a scholarship at a top school? I really don't want to take on debt.

[Nomo]

I would caution that legal academia isn't doing a lot of hiring these days. Enrollment is dwindling, schools are cutting class sizes, and faculty are being offered buyouts. Many believe that some schools will be closing in the near future.

Even with the Econ phd, to have a realistic shot of a job in academia you're likely going to need to attend HYS, finish at the top of your class so you get a feeder clerkship, and publish an article or two while you work for a big firm or DOJ. HYS isn't really in the business of giving out merit scholarships, but Uchicago is and they are big on law and economics . . . it might be a good place for you.

This website will give you some information on what scholarships are out there based on school and numbers: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/

[nebula666]

I would venture in at NYU and below. No chance at Y/S. Coinflip at Harvard/Col/Chi. Should get some good money from lower T-14.

[AntipodeanPhil]

I would venture in at NYU and below. No chance at Y/S. Coinflip at Harvard/Col/Chi. Should get some good money from lower T-14.

People here will tell you that a PhD doesn't really help for admissions. They don't know what they're talking about.

A PhD from a top school will give you a substantial bump at HYS, and a PhD in economics is the best kind.

With some serious study, you should have no trouble getting an LSAT score above the median at Harvard and Yale (173). With an above-median LSAT, I would almost guarantee that one of HYS would accept you.

While the academic job market is certainly very difficult right now, a PhD in economics from a top school would be a big boost there as well.

[aboutmydaylight]

I would venture in at NYU and below. No chance at Y/S. Coinflip at Harvard/Col/Chi. Should get some good money from lower T-14.

People here will tell you that a PhD doesn't really help for admissions. They don't know what they're talking about.

A PhD from a top school will give you a substantial bump at HYS, and a PhD in economics is the best kind.

With some serious study, you should have no trouble getting an LSAT score above the median at Harvard and Yale (173). With an above-median LSAT, I would almost guarantee that one of HYS would accept you.

While the academic job market is certainly very difficult right now, a PhD in economics from a top school would be a big boost there as well.

Well If he gets a median score at HY (173) with a 3.78 he probably had a decent shot at admission even without a PhD, to H at least. The PhD will probably put him over the hump, but lets not pretend that its making his cycle. Also, I'm well aware of the admission requirements and difficulties of PhD program in econ, but for academia at least iirc, top 15 isn't really "top". Its to my understanding that for academia, you ideally want the top 6 schools (HMSCPB). That tends to be for stand alone econ though, so I'm not exactly sure if that would matter as much for dual phd/jd, especially if you focus more on the legal side for your research. Anecdotally, all the PhD/JD professors I knew in UG were HYS + Top 6 Econ, and the majority of them taught at the law school (more $$$).

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, if you're competitive for HYS already, a PhD is a strong soft that makes you a very very good candidate, since they engage in more holistic-type review than lower-ranked schools. If you're not HYS competitive, a PhD is a decent soft but it's not going to work miracles. So for the OP, it will likely depend entirely on his/her LSAT.

[kartelite]

I had the same LSAC GPA (3.78), and had a somewhat similar background when I applied this year. I left my econ PhD program a number of years ago at pre-dissertation stage, but have been working in finance and economic consulting since then.

My advice would be to aim for 175+, or at least 173 since that's usually the median at HY. Honestly, this should be feasible for most native English speakers able to make it through a top 15 econ program, given the analytical firepower of the students there. Your PhD should help some, but it's still going to be hard with a below-median GPA and LSAT.

If you end up hitting 175 or better, I'm guessing your cycle should be pretty similar to mine. Of the top 6 programs, I was waitlisted at Yale and out at Stanford, but in at Harvard and with $$ at Columbia and NYU. I didn't apply to Chicago since I had absolutely no interest in going there, even on a full ride.

[pjohnstron0626]

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[kartelite]

Hey everyone, It just so happens, I'm in a similar situation as the original poster, but wondering if I should defer or not.

I am in at a bottom T14 with a 3.85UGPA and a 162/163 LSAT score (from three years ago). I deferred for two years (two years ago). Since then, I earned a masters degree and am working on a PhD in history (at Oxford). Just like the first poster, I was a varsity athlete in college. I also have pretty solid work experience (Senator/Governor of my state) and a few academic awards.

Should I retake the LSAT and roll the dice on next year? Or should I re-extend my T14 spot and hold onto the 10,000/year they offered? To Defer or to reapply?

Out of curiosity, what would it take for someone like me to get into H,Y,S or Columbia? The reason I ask is because I don't know if I'd retake the LSAT for just a marginal bump in the rankings?

Thanks for your help!

It would be crazy not to sit it out and retake if you think you can get to 170+. You'd be almost a lock (possibly with $) at Columbia, and competitive for Harvard. Yale and Stanford may dig your softs, and Stanford doesn't seem to care so much about super high LSATs.

[pjohnstron0626]

Thanks for your reply. I guess it will be interesting to see how I do when I take it a third time. If I score the same or only marginally approve, do you think I should play the ED game to see if I get lucky at Columbia or Stanford?

Hopefully, I will knock it out of the park and be proof to all those splitters out there that a bit of time can do your application wonders.

[mtn663]

Also, OP, bear in mind that H will gradually stop taking your parents' income into account for need-based aid in your mid- to late 20s (if you're not already) so depending on how old you are exactly and whether you have substantial assets of your own, it may end up being cheaper to go to H than CCN.

But given your PhD you might also catch the eye of, e.g., the Furman program at NYU.

[ph14]

Don't go to law school because you want legal academia. Go if you would only be okay being a practicing lawyer. To give you a rough sense of how difficult legal academic hiring is, there were roughly 63 entry-level tenure track hires in the entire country. I suspect most of them had stellar law school credentials. If you don't end up doing that well in law school, I think it will still be an uphill battle, even with a PhD in economics on your resume.

[mtn663]

Don't go to law school because you want legal academia. Go if you would only be okay being a practicing lawyer. To give you a rough sense of how difficult legal academic hiring is, there were roughly 63 entry-level tenure track hires in the entire country. I suspect most of them had stellar law school credentials. If you don't end up doing that well in law school, I think it will still be an uphill battle, even with a PhD in economics on your resume.

If OP gets full ride/close to it and can't end up being a legal academic I think the job market for econ PhDs from high-ranked schools (both in academia and outside) is still pretty good, isn't it?

ETA: I don't disagree that the hiring market is terrible but in this case it's not a disaster if OP never uses the JD as long as he doesn't pay all that much for it. (he's an economist so I won't undertake any analysis of opportunity cost)

[ph14]

Don't go to law school because you want legal academia. Go if you would only be okay being a practicing lawyer. To give you a rough sense of how difficult legal academic hiring is, there were roughly 63 entry-level tenure track hires in the entire country. I suspect most of them had stellar law school credentials. If you don't end up doing that well in law school, I think it will still be an uphill battle, even with a PhD in economics on your resume.

If OP gets full ride/close to it and can't end up being a legal academic I think the job market for econ PhDs from high-ranked schools (both in academia and outside) is still pretty good, isn't it?

I have no knowledge of econ PhD hiring. I suspect that 3 years in law school though and not researching and publishing in economics would not be viewed that favorably, though, although maybe there is something he can bring from law school to economics.

[Doorkeeper]

As OP specifically said "top 15", I'm going to assume you go to NYU/Michigan/Wisconsin/UCLA area school.

If you specifically go to NYU, I would talk to Barry Friedman about the Furman program.

OP has a good shot at legal academia if he/she goes to HYS/Chicago/Furman at NYU. Other than that, considering how good the econ hiring market is compared to most social sciences, I would hesitate spending the extra 3-5 years to get the legal credentials necessary for legal academia over an econ department.

OP would be in a great position going into law school with an Econ PhD though, there are a lot of professors at HYSCCN who would salivate at the chance of having an RA with that type of background. The question is whether OP can translate that into articles with his/her name on them coming out of law school.