Huge gap in undergraduate in both years and GPA Forum

[bravo1085]

I started undergrad in 1998, and left in 2000. My GPA at that point was a stellar 2.2. Fast forward 10+ years and my degree granting GPA was 3.62 (LSDAS 3.42). LSDAS Cumulative is 2.77 (ouch). LSAT is 164 if that matters. I've added addendums explaining the situation and how the early GPA is absolutely not an indication of my ability. Does anyone know how strongly the early GPA (and subsequently the cumulative GPA) will count against me?

[d cooper]

All that will matter is that 2.77. An upward trend is generally considered to be a tiebreaker only. Luckily, although the GPA is set in stone, your LSAT can be improved.

[Nova]

Does anyone know how strongly the early GPA (and subsequently the cumulative GPA) will count against me?

strongly

expect your cycle to go like a typical 2.8/164 applicant

(in at some T1s without much scholarship)

[bravo1085]

Thanks for the input. I was hoping the distance in time would weigh in more heavily, but I wasn't holding my breath.

[SFrost]

Actually, your degree GPA isn't even good.

It's one thing to have a bad GPA, then take a long break, and finally come back with all A's. It's another to have a bad GPA and come back with mediocre grades.

That said, a killer LSAT score could go a long way. Unfortunately, a 164 is pretty mediocre as well.

Do you have your bachelor's degree yet? If not, and if you are really serious about LS, is it possible to get your GPA above a 3.0? You also need a higher LSAT, to be in the running for anywhere that isn't career suicide.

FYI, there are much more accessible career options out there for you. Law is going to require more from you than you've given so far.

[bravo1085]

Actually, your degree GPA isn't even good.

It's one thing to have a bad GPA, then take a long break, and finally come back with all A's. It's another to have a bad GPA and come back with mediocre grades.

That said, a killer LSAT score could go a long way. Unfortunately, a 164 is pretty mediocre as well.

Do you have your bachelor's degree yet? If not, and if you are really serious about LS, is it possible to get your GPA above a 3.0? You also need a higher LSAT, to be in the running for anywhere that isn't career suicide.

FYI, there are much more accessible career options out there for you. Law is going to require more from you than you've given so far.

The difference between the degree granting GPA and the LSDAS degree is due to me attempting to return to school at an earlier date and having to quit after the withdrawal date for financial reasons. I wasn't even there for the first exam. Of course, I got an F in the class. Clearly I didn't fail the class because of a lack of effort or ability. I replaced the grade when I did return full time. So, as far a representation of my effort, we can say my GPA after returning to school was the 3.62. Based on other posts of yours, I'm estimating your GPA around 3.7 and LSAT between 165-168. This means that your GPA is (if I'm correct in my estimate) less than a point higher than mine was after being out of school for 12 years. Furthermore, my "mediocre" LSAT is no more than 4 points off from yours. Now, 4 points is decent difference in scores, but not astronomical. And I see we both took the December LSAT, so the greatest difference between our answer sheets is 5-6 questions. Seeing as you didn't score a 180, I assume there were some questions that you weren't sure on. So, it's entirely possible that the difference between our scores is a fluke.

Also, I fail to see how you can conclude that I will be committing career suicide when you have no idea what my career goals are.

[MKC]

My story is similar to yours, and you need to change your mindset. I had 58 credit hours at a 2.38 GPA, and returned to school to graduate with a 3.95 degree GPA. Doesn't matter. My LSDAS GPA was a 3.25, and that's the only number that matters. Law schools couldn't give a flying fuck less about you "holistically". It's a numbers game pure and simple. LSAT and GPA don't matter as indicators of your potential, they matter because they are part of how schools are ranked by U.S. News. Your 164 is mediocre when combined with your GPA, and anyone here will tell you to retake anything less than a 165, and many will say anything less than a 170 means you aren't trying hard enough. FTR, I came to school with a 166, and that was barely sufficient. Lucky for me, Wustl was tossing out money like Rick Ross at a titty bar last year, so everything worked out. With your GPA, that LSAT isn't going to cut it. You're either going to end up at a terrible school with some money or a mediocre school at sticker, neither of which is a desirable outcome. LSAT points aren't valuable because they prove you will do well, they are valuable because schools are desperately trying to hold medians. I would guess that my one point above 165, which put me at median, was worth about 75k to Wustl last year. That's insane, but it's reality.

So like they said, study your ass off and retake, or don't go.

Unless you have a rich uncle with his name on the firm door who's paying your tuition, but if that's the case, you don't need to ask anyone's advice because you're already set.

ETA: You probably need a 170+ to overcome that GPA.

[bravo1085]

And what do you consider a "terrible" school?

[MKC]

And what do you consider a "terrible" school?

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

In this context, any school with less than a 50% chance of being a lawyer when you're done. (long-term, full-time, J.D. required position 9 months after graduation, aka LST score)

[Clearly]

Trust me from personal experience, take a year off, retake for the best score you can possibly get, and hope a lower T14 will bite for your LSAT.

[MKC]

Trust me from personal experience, take a year off, retake for the best score you can possibly get, and hope a lower T14 will bite for your LSAT.

You forgot your patented graphic.

[SFrost]

Actually, your degree GPA isn't even good.

It's one thing to have a bad GPA, then take a long break, and finally come back with all A's. It's another to have a bad GPA and come back with mediocre grades.

That said, a killer LSAT score could go a long way. Unfortunately, a 164 is pretty mediocre as well.

Do you have your bachelor's degree yet? If not, and if you are really serious about LS, is it possible to get your GPA above a 3.0? You also need a higher LSAT, to be in the running for anywhere that isn't career suicide.

FYI, there are much more accessible career options out there for you. Law is going to require more from you than you've given so far.

The difference between the degree granting GPA and the LSDAS degree is due to me attempting to return to school at an earlier date and having to quit after the withdrawal date for financial reasons. I wasn't even there for the first exam. Of course, I got an F in the class. Clearly I didn't fail the class because of a lack of effort or ability. I replaced the grade when I did return full time. So, as far a representation of my effort, we can say my GPA after returning to school was the 3.62. Based on other posts of yours, I'm estimating your GPA around 3.7 and LSAT between 165-168. This means that your GPA is (if I'm correct in my estimate) less than a point higher than mine was after being out of school for 12 years. Furthermore, my "mediocre" LSAT is no more than 4 points off from yours. Now, 4 points is decent difference in scores, but not astronomical. And I see we both took the December LSAT, so the greatest difference between our answer sheets is 5-6 questions. Seeing as you didn't score a 180, I assume there were some questions that you weren't sure on. So, it's entirely possible that the difference between our scores is a fluke.

Also, I fail to see how you can conclude that I will be committing career suicide when you have no idea what my career goals are.

At most schools there are withdrawal options. Getting an F when you weren't there for the first test does imply some kind of lack of forethought in properly withdrawing. You may not consider that fair, but if the F was truly not legit then you should have disputed it with the school.

As it is, it's on your transcript, and it counts against you. Law schools only slightly care about what you think your 'true' GPA is. What counts is that single number that gets reported to them and that they in turn report on their admission statistics.

You misunderstand the context behind me calling your LSAT mediocre. I 'have' a mediocre LSAT, I never said otherwise. I also consider my GPA mediocre. I do, however, have far above average softs. That got me into a total of two T14s (and held/waitlisted at 4 others, if it matters). When you're below the 50% or even the 25% for both GPA/LSAT you need something for the adcomms to like. You have to be the judge if you have that or not.

As for career suicide, you're right that that does depend on your career goals. In general, considering the debt and opportunity cost, I'm of the opinion you shouldn't go to LS unless you are aiming to be a lawyer. Your GPA and LSAT suggest you might end up at a school giving you <50% chance to be a lawyer. It's debatable if that's career suicide but I think it might be.

[bravo1085]

I do have some decent softs. Nothing crazy, but Native American, Veteran, Non-traditional and some honor society, volunteer and work experience in the legal field. I'm still waiting to hear back from several schools, but I do have an acceptance from Richmond with 75% tuition. Their LST numbers aren't T14, but they're above 50%. Another thing that killed me second time around was Spanish, 4 semesters of it. I know it doesn't matter as far as my GPA, but it won't play into Law School. On the other hand, my degree is in Philosophy, which I kicked ass at. So the reading, writing, analyzing and argumentation is second nature to me. I feel pretty confident that my law school gpa will be pretty good. I also don't intend to work.

[bravo1085]

Oh, and like I said it left after the withdrawal date in that class. Disputing it was a no-go. I was stuck with simple grade-replacement.

[rebexness]

Native American, Veteran, .

Are you a member of a tribe? NA boost isn't as big as some, but it exists.

[bravo1085]

Yes, enrolled member Muscogee-Creek Nation

[Caesar Salad]

.

[Gooner91]

I do have some decent softs. Nothing crazy, but Native American, Veteran, Non-traditional and some honor society, volunteer and work experience in the legal field. I'm still waiting to hear back from several schools, but I do have an acceptance from Richmond with 75% tuition. Their LST numbers aren't T14, but they're above 50%. Another thing that killed me second time around was Spanish, 4 semesters of it. I know it doesn't matter as far as my GPA, but it won't play into Law School. On the other hand, my degree is in Philosophy, which I kicked ass at. So the reading, writing, analyzing and argumentation is second nature to me. I feel pretty confident that my law school gpa will be pretty good. I also don't intend to work.

Huh? If I read that correctly and you aren't interested in a legal career, then you're in good shape, your numbers will get you in somewhere--probably multiple somewhere's. After that, just go to the cheapest one as the education you get from any of them will be pretty much the same. But a much easier way to not be a lawyer is to not go to law school.

I think they meant they will not work in law school which they feel will help their law school gpa be "pretty good".

[Caesar Salad]

I do have some decent softs. Nothing crazy, but Native American, Veteran, Non-traditional and some honor society, volunteer and work experience in the legal field. I'm still waiting to hear back from several schools, but I do have an acceptance from Richmond with 75% tuition. Their LST numbers aren't T14, but they're above 50%. Another thing that killed me second time around was Spanish, 4 semesters of it. I know it doesn't matter as far as my GPA, but it won't play into Law School. On the other hand, my degree is in Philosophy, which I kicked ass at. So the reading, writing, analyzing and argumentation is second nature to me. I feel pretty confident that my law school gpa will be pretty good. I also don't intend to work.

Huh? If I read that correctly and you aren't interested in a legal career, then you're in good shape, your numbers will get you in somewhere--probably multiple somewhere's. After that, just go to the cheapest one as the education you get from any of them will be pretty much the same. But a much easier way to not be a lawyer is to not go to law school.

I think they meant they will not work in law school which they feel will help their law school gpa be "pretty good".

Whoops, gotta brush up on my rc