Very special circumstances! Forum

[Jam86]

I am writing this post because although I have the ability to assess the figures and statistics, my circumstance is almost like no other. Therefore, I would like some input on where I should apply, what essay approach should I use, and if I have a chance at Columbia. Currently, I attend one of the most elite engineering schools in the country. I am a double major: chemical engineering, and biochemistry/molecular biology. My current GPA is 3.0. After attending school for 2 years I withdrew from school for medical reasons. Alcoholism runs very deep in my family. At the age of 15 I became an alcoholic. Between the ages of 16 and 20 I visited the hospital 8 times due to the nature of my usage. By 2008, the beginning of my junior year, my parents were preparing for my funeral because I had multiple organ damage and was unable to stay sober. I left school and went to rehab. I stayed in rehab for 6 months straight. Then I stayed at a very strict halfway house for women for a whole year. After this treatment, I was able to stay sober without support from other but I decided to try working small jobs before going back to such a prestigious school. I stayed out of school for a little over 3 years and during the time I worked 2 jobs, both of which I was promoted to management. During this time I won a national award for my service skills. I also became very involved with ministry work and did a lot of outreach to women. I was asked to write my story in a book to be publish in 2011 and although I declined I still spoke at various events several times a year. I have stayed sober for 5 years straight and have spoken for groups as large as 150 people. I maintain a high level of involvement with the sexual assault center in that area.

I returned to school in 2012. My GPA at that point was a 2.3. Over 2 years I have increased that to a 3.0. I have over 120 credit hours and therefore it was extremely difficult to do. Every quarter since my return I have attained above a 3.3. All of the classes since my return have consisted of high levels: heat transfer, mass transfer and applications, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, advanced biochemistry, molecular genetics.

When I returned to school I dropped all extracurricular activities i was involved with. This included a top position on varsity tennis, ( I have been ranked top 100 in the nation in 16& under age group, as well as top 300 in the world in 16& under age group, during college I was an all conference player. I was co-captain of the cheerleading team, held a national ranking in chess and was involved with a sorority and a professional fraternity.

I quit everything and started over.

Currently I have clocked in more than 200 hours at the local hospital. My shifts start at 7 am and end at 12. During that time I work in the cardiology department consoling family members that are distraught while the patient is in surgery, I give them updates and help the doctors keep track of where they are. This is very difficult work because it is not uncommon to have patients die in procedure. I have to talk with people who are very upset every day I volunteer.

I have done biomedical research for an entire quarter. We are looking into applying for a patent for the product. I write political articles for the opinions section of the newspaper. I have been asked to write on the front page and I have also appeared in the living section. Some of my work has been presented in a public website for the school. It covered an extremely controversial topic.

I started a support group at my school for women that are struggling with sexual trauma. This group has helped all 6 women stay enrolled in school. After this group, I started a movement towards educating freshmen women and men on the issue of sexual assault at parties. A top lawyer will be visiting our school to add informational sessions to our freshmen orientation schedule and to educate resident assistants/faculty.
My hobby: rock climbing, in April I will be climbing the red river gorge (trad)

I am set to take the lsat in June. My original diagnostic for march 16 was a 151. 0.0
However, I no longer miss any points in my logical games section, and my last 3 PTs were 165-168. I intend to study for 4 hours 6x per week for the June 9th exam. If I do not receive a test score above 175, I will be retaking the lsat in October. I saved up my money for 3 months, and worked with my advisor to take the minimum amount of full time hours this quarter (13). I bought every single PT (print and not in print), all 3 bibles- I've already worked through all of them. I also have the proctor DVD, and ACE games book.

I intend to apply to Columbia (ED)

Does my story and improvement trump my 3.0?
What schools would you apply to?
What are my chances?

Also, please excuse my format and grammar errors because I am writing this between classes on my phone.

[Big Dog]

only two numbers matter: GPA+LSAT. The fact that you are/were a pre-engineer (and/or premed?) is of no relevance to the GPA factor.

So your chances at Columbia will depend solely on whether you can clear its LSAT median.


btw: since you are still in school, and need as manny A's as you can get, the chances of you clearing 175 in June are not good; it will probably require extensive -- near full time -- study for October.

[beepboopbeep]

I am writing this post because although I have the ability to assess the figures and statistics, my circumstance is almost like no other.

Sorry to be a killjoy, but this just isn't true, and you should get it out of your head before you start applying. Sounds like you've had a rough go of it, and good on you for pulling yourself out of the muck. It's just that 1) there are a lot of applicants who have just as, if not more, impressive stories, and 2) law school rankings depend on LSAT/GPA of the entering class, so schools can only take a very small number of special snowflake candidates. With a damn good PS you might be one of them, but the overwhelming odds are that LSAT/GPA will decide your fate at the majority of schools.

I'll disagree with Big Dog on the LSAT thing - it can definitely be done in that short timeframe. But it doesn't really matter what we predict your LSAT will be - come back when you have a score.

NU would be my recommendation. CLS is probably a slim chance without a sky-high LSAT.

[mraemorris]

I am writing this post because although I have the ability to assess the figures and statistics, my circumstance is almost like no other. Therefore, I would like some input on where I should apply, what essay approach should I use, and if I have a chance at Columbia. Currently, I attend one of the most elite engineering schools in the country. I am a double major: chemical engineering, and biochemistry/molecular biology. My current GPA is 3.0. After attending school for 2 years I withdrew from school for medical reasons. Alcoholism runs very deep in my family. At the age of 15 I became an alcoholic. Between the ages of 16 and 20 I visited the hospital 8 times due to the nature of my usage. By 2008, the beginning of my junior year, my parents were preparing for my funeral because I had multiple organ damage and was unable to stay sober. I left school and went to rehab. I stayed in rehab for 6 months straight. Then I stayed at a very strict halfway house for women for a whole year. After this treatment, I was able to stay sober without support from other but I decided to try working small jobs before going back to such a prestigious school. I stayed out of school for a little over 3 years and during the time I worked 2 jobs, both of which I was promoted to management. During this time I won a national award for my service skills. I also became very involved with ministry work and did a lot of outreach to women. I was asked to write my story in a book to be publish in 2011 and although I declined I still spoke at various events several times a year. I have stayed sober for 5 years straight and have spoken for groups as large as 150 people. I maintain a high level of involvement with the sexual assault center in that area.

I returned to school in 2012. My GPA at that point was a 2.3. Over 2 years I have increased that to a 3.0. I have over 120 credit hours and therefore it was extremely difficult to do. Every quarter since my return I have attained above a 3.3. All of the classes since my return have consisted of high levels: heat transfer, mass transfer and applications, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, advanced biochemistry, molecular genetics.

When I returned to school I dropped all extracurricular activities i was involved with. This included a top position on varsity tennis, ( I have been ranked top 100 in the nation in 16& under age group, as well as top 300 in the world in 16& under age group, during college I was an all conference player. I was co-captain of the cheerleading team, held a national ranking in chess and was involved with a sorority and a professional fraternity.

I quit everything and started over.

Currently I have clocked in more than 200 hours at the local hospital. My shifts start at 7 am and end at 12. During that time I work in the cardiology department consoling family members that are distraught while the patient is in surgery, I give them updates and help the doctors keep track of where they are. This is very difficult work because it is not uncommon to have patients die in procedure. I have to talk with people who are very upset every day I volunteer.

I have done biomedical research for an entire quarter. We are looking into applying for a patent for the product. I write political articles for the opinions section of the newspaper. I have been asked to write on the front page and I have also appeared in the living section. Some of my work has been presented in a public website for the school. It covered an extremely controversial topic.

I started a support group at my school for women that are struggling with sexual trauma. This group has helped all 6 women stay enrolled in school. After this group, I started a movement towards educating freshmen women and men on the issue of sexual assault at parties. A top lawyer will be visiting our school to add informational sessions to our freshmen orientation schedule and to educate resident assistants/faculty.
My hobby: rock climbing, in April I will be climbing the red river gorge (trad)

I am set to take the lsat in June. My original diagnostic for march 16 was a 151. 0.0
However, I no longer miss any points in my logical games section, and my last 3 PTs were 165-168. I intend to study for 4 hours 6x per week for the June 9th exam. If I do not receive a test score above 175, I will be retaking the lsat in October. I saved up my money for 3 months, and worked with my advisor to take the minimum amount of full time hours this quarter (13). I bought every single PT (print and not in print), all 3 bibles- I've already worked through all of them. I also have the proctor DVD, and ACE games book.

I intend to apply to Columbia (ED)

Does my story and improvement trump my 3.0?
What schools would you apply to?
What are my chances?

Also, please excuse my format and grammar errors because I am writing this between classes on my phone.

High 160s will still be difficult to get into Columbia, but not impossible, and your story may help you. However, for your story to help you, we need to know how it will contribute to your success as an attorney/Columbia Law grad, and we need to know that it won't hinder your success there. What type of law do you want to do/why do you want to go to Columbia Law? How has your past affected this decision?

The biggest challenge that I think you'll have is showing that you can handle the pressure of law school without backsliding. I commend you for making difficult choices to ensure your sobriety, but law school is very high pressure and you won't necessarily be able to live in a bubble, kind of like it sounds like you're doing now. You need to show them that the "bubble" was just a step in your progress, and that you'll be able to participate in the law school community (journal, moot court, clinics - the things you need to be competitive upon graduation) without putting your health at risk. I think the way you explained them above is a step in the right direction - you portray them as proactive, healthy choices, to ensure your success, and I think that's the right way to go. Just make sure you look at it with a critical eye and address any concerns that an admissions officer would have.

Anyway, good luck, and congratulations on all the progress you've made! You should be proud! Definitely keep getting more opinions, though - my experience hasn't been similar to yours (I imagine few are) and I don't consider myself an authority on these issues.

Also, for the record - you'll likely get into a T14 with your story and if you get high 160s/low 170s, even if it's not Columbia. NYU and Penn are great schools in that geographic area, and they might be more open-minded as well.

[IAFG]

Almost all your softs read like "law school is what I am left with since I won't get into med school."

Given your rough go of things, I would seriously consider getting a job (pharmacy rep?) and coming back to law school once you have some distance and perspective.

[BVest]

tl.dr. Have you graduated yet? If not, it may even be worth putting off graduating in order to take some basket-weaving-for-idiots courses at the local junior college to get some more As on the transcript. As soon as that degree is rewarded, the LSAC hammer comes down and there is nothing more you can do about your GPA.

Also for GPA, be sure you know what your LSAC GPA will be, not just what your undergrad institution reflects (especially important if you've taken an F or two).

[Jam86]

No pre med. All engineering . Research is biomedical engineering (designing biomedical devices for surgery), work experience is engineering (bioseparations, process control, genetic engineering areas). If I went to graduate school I would do engineering. I guess my volunteering is medical related but I just like the people I work with. I have been doing it for a long time.

[Clearly]

Just do your best finishing up school and don't settle on an lsat below 173. Your gpa is still going to hurt you and likely will keep Columbia off the table, but you never know. Apply CCNP down and I'm sure you'll have good outcomes surface.

[francesfarmer]

No pre med. All engineering . Research is biomedical engineering (designing biomedical devices for surgery), work experience is engineering (bioseparations, process control, genetic engineering areas). If I went to graduate school I would do engineering. I guess my volunteering is medical related but I just like the people I work with. I have been doing it for a long time.

Why don't you go to grad school for engineering?

[transferror]

Just do your best finishing up school and don't settle on an lsat below 173. Your gpa is still going to hurt you and likely will keep Columbia off the table, but you never know. Apply CCNP down and I'm sure you'll have good outcomes surface.

This ^^^. Best of luck and congrats on bouncing back

[Tiago Splitter]

Try to get that GPA up a little higher while there's still time. Wherever it ends up though you'll to at least get to Columbia's LSAT median of 171, and probably a few points above it, to have any shot.

[SFrost]

1. I'm guessing alcoholism is going to be the 'theme' of your PS. There's really no way to predict how this will help you. I've been involved in admissions (not JD, but PhD) and I can tell you one thing we looked for was evidence of how you respond to stress. A history of substance abuse is a red flag. Adversity can be compelling but you have to be very careful how you sell it.

2. As mentioned above, your history screams pre med washout to me. I saw absolutely nothing related to law in there, or am I missing something? As far as 'softs' go I think a good reason for going to law school trumps random community service efforts (if those aren't related to success in the legal field).

My softs are pretty strong and I have an adversity story. This got me in to two T14s (with an LSAT below their 25% and a median GPA). But, I also got rejected/WL from everywhere else, even Georgetown (what?). Relying on soft factors makes your application unpredictable. It will depend on how well you sell your story and how much your story connects with individual adcoms.

[rpupkin]

1. I'm guessing alcoholism is going to be the 'theme' of your PS. There's really no way to predict how this will help you. I've been involved in admissions (not JD, but PhD) and I can tell you one thing we looked for was evidence of how you respond to stress. A history of substance abuse is a red flag. Adversity can be compelling but you have to be very careful how you sell it.

This is an important point. Adversity does not automatically make for a compelling personal statement. Also, I would be wary of passages like this:

When I returned to school I dropped all extracurricular activities i was involved with. This included a top position on varsity tennis, ( I have been ranked top 100 in the nation in 16& under age group, as well as top 300 in the world in 16& under age group, during college I was an all conference player. I was co-captain of the cheerleading team, held a national ranking in chess and was involved with a sorority and a professional fraternity.

I quit everything and started over.

I think what you're getting at here is that you decided to start a new chapter of your life. The problem, though, is that it makes you sound like a quitter. Sorry for being blunt, but I recommend avoiding statements that suggest that you can't handle multiple commitments at once. I know that's not what you meant (you detail all the outside work you did in the next few paragraphs), but it's dangerous to highlight the fact that you "quit" certain activities.

[kellohitty]

I hate to rain on your parade, but your circumstances won't give you any boost for Columbia. While I commend you for your amazing recovery (alcoholism runs in my family too. I know it's not easy to deal with), nearly everyone applying to law school will write about a unique life experience. The only thing that will matter is your GPA and LSAT. If you can lock a 170 along and finish college off strong (all A's from here on out and try to raise that GPA to a 3.4-3.5), I think you might have a chance at the lower T14. However, Columbia may be out. It's really difficult to get a 175, but you've made great improvements thus far, so maybe it's attainable for you.

[TigerDude]

I'm wondering why you are passing up a $100k salary to go to law school, and why you would consider grad school for engineering.

[20141023]

.

[NYC-WVU]

Every quarter since my return I have attained above a 3.3.

This nicely highlights the uphill battle you are facing. Many of the students you are competing with for admission to CLS have never gotten a 3.3. If you said something like, "I've gotten only one A- since coming back; the rest were As," then I think you'd have a better chance of pitching your turn-around story. But, if the reality is that you have turned yourself around from being a "bad" student to being a "good" student, I don't think CLS will care. CLS is a stretch even for consistently "good" students. They're really looking for "exceptional" students.

But the biggest hole in your story/resume, is (as others point out) the complete abesnce of interest in the legal field. Why do you want to be a lawyer?

Here is what I would suggest. Keep fighting the good fight at school. Come up with some great talking points for why you want to be a lawyer. Poke around TLS until you have an idea of which of your softs adcoms might give a shit about and which one's they wont (like being asked to write a front page story for the paper). Come back and present a concise story with a more accurate prediction of your LSAT score and see how people react then.

Also, if you want a realistic answer, don't indicate that you're hoping for one of the most elite law schools in the world, because it prevents people from giving you an honest evaluation of where they think you could end up. If you're a good fit for Yale, and you ask an open-ended question of where you might be able to go, the forum will tell you Yale. And if you're a good fit for Michigan, and ask teh open-ended question, they'll tell you Michigan. But if you're a good fit for Michigan and you ask if you are a good fit for Yale, they'll tell you "Umm... Maybe, good luck!

[03152016]

It sounds like you have a lot of drive, and you have a great story. But even with the hard science major, strong softs, good UG, and (hopefully) great LSAT score, it'll be hard to overcome that GPA.

Focus on boosting the GPA as much as possible while you can -- that should be your #1 focus. Double down on studying, go to office hours, join a study group, hire a tutor, whatever you have to do. If you have the financial means to add some easy courses or extend your UG career a little, consider it (as a fellow splitter, I dream I had this option). Then, afterwards, you can tackle the LSAT full-force.

Remember - you can take the LSAT a bunch of times. You can only graduate once. Once you get your diploma, that GPA is set in stone.

[esther0123]

I wouldn't say LSAT and GPA are the ONLY thing that matters, but it is necessary to a certain extent. I too have "overcoming-adversity" PS, which is definitely genuine, but everyone will try to write some form of "pity-me" story to come across as unique. One person's adversity may not mean much to another person, although this doesn't mean what the former has experienced is invalid.

Anyways, a compelling personal story and coherent extracurricular activities DO seem to push you over the edge if your GPA and LSAT are making you look borderline. But the key here is "borderline." You gotta get there. And even then, it gets unpredictable.

Like everyone has said already, just work on your GPA and gain a little perspective to see if law is really the right thing for you.

Also, regarding alcoholism..... that's a tricky thing. While I understand it is in large part hereditary, it has a history of being construed as some form of moral failing and a sign of "weakness of character" -- by no means do I believe this perception, but you don't know who's reading your PS. So I would be careful on that.