169, 3.9x and no luck Forum

[SemiReverseSplinter]

Here are my cycle results:

Duke - Waitlist
Georgetown - Waitlist
Northwestern - Waitlist
Chicago - Waitlist
Berkeley - Dinged
UCLA - Waitlist

Haven't heard back from USC, Stanford, Penn.

And that's it...

So my question is, what do you I'm doing wrong? I applied in January pretty much the day I received my December LSAT score (169). I have taken the LSAT two other times and got in the 150's both times. Though I don't have remarkable softs, I was super involved at my undergrad, and I currently have a full-time legal related job. I currently live in California, and would love to stay here but I'm not picky. I have ties to Chicago as well.

I'm considering applying next cycle and hoping for better results if I don't get anything this cycle. I just want opinions/advice about why I received such poor results. Is it because of the late app date? Or maybe because I didn't really tailor my apps? Or do you think the retakes hurt me? I thought I would at least get UCLA or USC to bite, but whatever.

Also, the reason I posted in the What are my chances board, is I want to know anyone's opinion on waiting and applying early next cycle? Retaking isn't really an option as I've taken it 3 times within 2 years, plus I feel like I absolutely killed myself to get that score.

PS Did anyone else who applied in January or later get poor results?

[random number]

I would guess that, barring any major issues with your app (bad recommendations, PS, etc), you are suffering from a combination of the late application (at the higher ranked schools) and yield protection issues (at the non T-14s). If you are desperate to go this year, get working on LOCIs. Otherwise, you should be able to grab at least a few of the T-14 (potentially with scholarships) if you apply next year.

[Mack.Hambleton]

do you have any suspicions about your essays or recs?

[SemiReverseSplinter]

My PS was from an experience during my undergrad, so that might be a little outdated since I'm about a year and a half out of undergrad. My Recs are from a professor and a boss from a gov't internship during college, so I would say those are outdated as well, though I know they both wrote highly of me, and both are very well respected accomplished individuals. And like I said, I submitted a Why X essay to one school, but other than that I just submitted the same PS to all the schools. I was worried about getting apps in as soon as possible after the Dec. LSAT was released.

[haus]

I would guess that, barring any major issues with your app (bad recommendations, PS, etc), you are suffering from a combination of the late application (at the higher ranked schools) and yield protection issues (at the non T-14s). If you are desperate to go this year, get working on LOCIs. Otherwise, you should be able to grab at least a few of the T-14 (potentially with scholarships) if you apply next year.

I agree with Rand#. Also I doubt that 12-18 months of age for activities in either PS or LOR would have any impact.

[random number]

My PS was from an experience during my undergrad, so that might be a little outdated since I'm about a year and a half out of undergrad. My Recs are from a professor and a boss from a gov't internship during college, so I would say those are outdated as well, though I know they both wrote highly of me, and both are very well respected accomplished individuals. And like I said, I submitted a Why X essay to one school, but other than that I just submitted the same PS to all the schools. I was worried about getting apps in as soon as possible after the Dec. LSAT was released.

That all sounds good, although some schools imply (or even state) that they want 2 academic LORs for applicants who are relatively recent graduates. Definitely double check the application requirements. Assuming that you are O.K. in this regard, I think that you certainly have a chance of getting off waitlists later in the cycle, but you probably will do better scholarship-wise by applying early next year.

BTW, congrats on the impressive LSAT improvement.

[BVest]

And like I said, I submitted a Why X essay to one school, but other than that I just submitted the same PS to all the schools.

If you're set on going this year, LOCI is your opportunity to do a brief version of why x.

[SemiReverseSplinter]

Thanks for the input. Since it would be out of the question to have my wife and I relocate to another state given a month's notice, I will submit LOCI's and Why X's to USC and UCLA and press hard for admission with $$, but if that doesn't come through, I'll probably be looking at reapplying next year. It just sucks, but I'm singing to the choir on that I'm sure.

Thanks again.

[Tiago Splitter]

Thanks for the input. Since it would be out of the question to have my wife and I relocate to another state given a month's notice, I will submit LOCI's and Why X's to USC and UCLA and press hard for admission with $$, but if that doesn't come through, I'll probably be looking at reapplying next year. It just sucks, but I'm singing to the choir on that I'm sure.

Thanks again.

Don't count yourself out just yet. Write LOCI's everywhere and see what happens. If it turns out that life circumstances won't allow you to move in time to go somewhere outside of LA then consider reapplying but let's cross that bridge when you get there. Whatever you do don't go to UCLA or USC without a massive scholarship.

[staysha]

UCLA WL is 100% yield protect. For some reason they in particular pay a LOT of attention to this.

UCLA throws around a lot of money. With you being above both medians, you should receive a sizable scholarship. Push for as close to full tuition as you can.

[jbagelboy]

God is telling you to retake the LSAT.

[Clyde Frog]

God is telling you to retake the LSAT.

He took it 3 times in 2 years.

[northwood]

Look at your essays, and for schools that you are above their 75%, consider writing a WHY SCHOOL X essay in addition to your personal statement. I think applying earlier in the next cycle will help you. Especially since you have from now until September to edit and write those essays. Sit this cycle out and start law school in the fall 2015.

[OutCold]

I would guess it is a product of the late application. Once you hit January, your chances start to decrease pretty significantly. I didn't get a few schools that I probably should have given my numbers, most notably UVA and Mich. On top of that, scholarships are difficult to get as the money is starting to run thin. I got lucky with one big offer from a lower school that I was able to leverage to get the amount I currently have at my school. I think you'll do yourself a world of good waiting until next fall and applying early in the cycle.

[Crowing]

There's plenty of time left, and even if you don't snag any good acceptances I'd sit on the waitlists into the summer and I'd be willing to bet you'll see some positive results.

Reapplying next year without any differences in your app isn't likely to change anything about the schools you already applied to. That being said, you can cast a broader net so it could still be beneficial.

[SFrost]

Both my GPA and LSAT are lower than yours and I managed to get into NYU and Duke applying mid-late January. OTOH, I was outright rejected from Georgetown.

I think people tend to ignore the fact that once a school meets its medians, there is no advantage/disadvantage to admitting any LSAT/GPA combination. This is why a system that ranks based on medians lends itself to being more holistic than one relying on means.

Point being, I do think the quality of your PS and other essays counts for much more than TLS gives credit for. If you don't get the school/scholarship combination that you wanted this cycle, I think it's perfectly reasonable to hope for different outcomes next year with a cleaned up statement (and maybe some other softs).

[SemiReverseSplinter]

Thanks for the advice everyone. If I do end up sitting out a cycle, which is a likely possibility, I will be cleaning up my statement to reflect my current life and goals. I will ride out at least a few waitlists/acceptances to see if I get enough with scholarships.

And I do agree that personal statements and other essays do mean a lot, especially with later applicants. It did make me question the extent of the TLS conventional wisdom of GPA/LSAT being so significant as the belittle all else. I'm not saying TLS thinks they are all that matters, but I definitely took a few steps back from my extreme view of the power of the GPA/LSAT combination.

[NYC-WVU]

PS definitely matters. And I don't think the TLS conventional wisdom is intended to indicate that it doesn't matter. I just think TLS thinks that your PS is unlikely to set you apart. Unless you have something truly unique/relevant to talk about, your 100%-best-effort essay is likely to be very similar to the 100%-best-effort essay prepared by most of your peers.
Also, to the extent that admins "score" personal statements, I would assume the scoring is very broad, like (i) bad, (ii) fair, (iii) good, (iv) phenomenal, because it's too subjective and difficult to go deeper than that. And if that's the case, LSAT numbers are just so much easier to distinguish between close candidates.

[NotASpecialSnowflake]

167, 3.9x applied in January, waitlisted at every T-14 from Chicago down. I have no idea what I did wrong

[Mack.Hambleton]

167, 3.9x applied in January, waitlisted at every T-14 from Chicago down. I have no idea what I did wrong

Even Cornell/GULC?

Applying late could have been a lot of it, and if you're KJD/weak softs that would make more sense. Have you thought about retaking and reapplying early?

[holly45]

168, 3.7 I applied after I got my February score (early March) and UCLA ($$) and NU ($?) accepted me about a week after I submitted my app. I'm WL at USC and PWL at Georgetown, still waiting to hear back from some.

[jbagelboy]

167, 3.9x applied in January, waitlisted at every T-14 from Chicago down. I have no idea what I did wrong

it actually makes perfect sense if you think about it from the adcom's POV. You have some numbers they could want, but won't necessarily need. They've had four months' worth of applications to fill those spots. Without more information about who is taking the offers of admission already presented, how can they reasonably make a strict thumbs up or down at you? Although for Chicago, NYU, and Penn, your LSAT might just be a little low.

[NotASpecialSnowflake]

167, 3.9x applied in January, waitlisted at every T-14 from Chicago down. I have no idea what I did wrong

Even Cornell/GULC?

Applying late could have been a lot of it, and if you're KJD/weak softs that would make more sense. Have you thought about retaking and reapplying early?

Yep Cornell and GULC included. I am going to retake in October, but apply ASAP next cycle. I'm hoping rewriting my PS and why X's will help too.

[Mack.Hambleton]

167, 3.9x applied in January, waitlisted at every T-14 from Chicago down. I have no idea what I did wrong

Even Cornell/GULC?

Applying late could have been a lot of it, and if you're KJD/weak softs that would make more sense. Have you thought about retaking and reapplying early?

Yep Cornell and GULC included. I am going to retake in October, but apply ASAP next cycle. I'm hoping rewriting my PS and why X's will help too.

Yeah I'd get some other people to look at them. Maybe Spivey or some of his people if you are ok spending some money

[sabrina8740]

FWIW, I have the exact same stats as you (took the LSAT twice, second was 169). I've been out of school for 3 years (so 2ish when applying). I applied early October and was admitted to all the schools I applied to (Stanford, UVA (Dillard), Penn ($$), Duke ($$), GULC ($$$), Vanderbilt ($$$), and UCLA ($$$)).

It's not always strictly about the numbers. If you plan to wait it out and reapply next cycle, make sure the rest of your application - from your resume to your personal statement - is as strong as possible and apply early! I heard from every school by Jan 10th.

Good luck!

EDIT: Change your PS. If you're 1.5 years out of school, use your PS to demonstrate how you have learned and grown from those experiences. Get a recommendation from your current boss. If you can, work with you professors to update your recommendations (working from a current resume so they can talk about how you built on your achievements in school after graduation, etc.). I also had my recommenders read my PS once it was close to final to ensure they were adding different elements to my application. You have 3-4 opportunities to show them something about yourself - your application will be much stronger if each one conveys a new skill or perspective rather than repeating the same achievements over and over (not sure if yours did that, but from talking to friends, I think that's a common issue in applications).