Early stages-- 3.12, 3.8 masters, 166, some exp. etc. Forum

[yowhat]

• 3.12 overall, BA in writing/english from SUNY, 3.8 in-major gpa
• 3.8, Masters in conflict/dispute res. from UOregon
• 166 LSAT
• 1 year of docketing clerk experience at a mid-sized IP firm
• teacher/tutor at a private university's opportunity program for 3 summers
• 4 years experience volunteering at reputable non-profits
• 29 years old when I apply
• (also considering going part-time while I work legal assistant at a mid-sized firm)

Where should I be looking with this rap sheet? Money is a huge factor. Maybe a preference to large public institutions but I'm open. Want to go government after. Help.

[BigZuck]

Retake.

Also, schools only care about two things you listed: the 3.12 and the 166.

[Nova]

Where are you from? Where do you have substantial ties?

[yowhat]

Retake.

Also, schools only care about two things you listed: the 3.12 and the 166.

which was my fear. damn it. that 3.12 was just me having no idea what i wanted do to from 17-19 until i settled into a major that i 4.0'd the rest of the way. a strong masters gpa and and a good personal statement can't help to explain some of that away?

also, if i do retake, what should i be looking to hit?

Where are you from? Where do you have substantial ties?

upstate new york. no ties i would consider substantial. unless i'm overlooking some...

edit: no ties in the sense of no legacy at a particular school, family practicing law or whatnot.

[Nova]

169+ for a shot at uva/nu/gulc

Right now you're probably looking at $$ from wustl/umn

Good shot at most other schools ranked 19 & below

[WanderingPondering]

Last year your numbers would have given you a full ride at WUSTL. If you're debt adverse and not set on ny, could be an option for you.

[yowhat]

Last year your numbers would have given you a full ride at WUSTL. If you're debt adverse and not set on ny, could be an option for you.

not set on ny, just where i have old roots. very debt averse.

169+ for a shot at uva/nu/gulc

Right now you're probably looking at $$ from wustl/umn

Good shot at most other schools ranked 19 & below

i've had my eye on texas, gw for the d.c. ties, fordham too.

here's two other question:

1) say i didn't have the masters and just had a 169+ lsat. would I still be looking at the same options? is it factoring in at least somewhat?

2) there seems to be a ton of emphasis here about t14, top 25, all that, and I do get it, but how much different will be my life be going to like, gw or umn vs texas or georgetown? especially if im looking to go govt when i'm done.

edit: the further i get into this idea, the more i wonder about question 2 there. would love to hear more insight...

[Nova]

Texas isn't happening with your current numbers

Your master's degree is pretty much irrelevant

[BigZuck]

To answer one of your questions:

schools only care about two things you listed: the 3.12 and the 166.

As for your other, GULC is a significantly better school than the others you listed. UT is a good school but I wouldn't go to UT without Texas ties. GW I would only go on a full ride (or close to it). UMN I would not attend if I were in your shoes.

People will say WUSTL and its a nice school and all but I wouldn't go there unless I had a full ride and wanted to work in the Midwest.

I think you should retake, hit a 169 (or ideally higher) and see what your T14 options look like. If none of those are good and you still want to be a lawyer then I guess WUSTL it up?

[yowhat]

first off thanks to everyone thus far. your help is greatly appreciated.

so it looks like this:
i'm going to retake, and that's a definite now.
my masters is a piece of paper

To answer one of your questions:

schools only care about two things you listed: the 3.12 and the 166.

As for your other, GULC is a significantly better school than the others you listed. UT is a good school but I wouldn't go to UT without Texas ties. GW I would only go on a full ride (or close to it). UMN I would not attend if I were in your shoes.

People will say WUSTL and its a nice school and all but I wouldn't go there unless I had a full ride and wanted to work in the Midwest.

I think you should retake, hit a 169 (or ideally higher) and see what your T14 options look like. If none of those are good and you still want to be a lawyer then I guess WUSTL it up?

gulc was just an example. i'm just trying to get to the root my my question, which i'll address in detail at the bottom of this post.

and i don't want to work in the midwest. northeast (nyc/bk really), dc, west coast/pnw. pretty much no interest in the midwest outside of chicago.

Texas isn't happening with your current numbers
Your master's degree is pretty much irrelevant

a) is it possible with an even higher lsat? a bomber lsat score is pretty much my ticket in at this point, right?
b) yeah, damn.

----------

so, back to my other question. how much do things change between t14 and say, top 25, in terms of career prospects, lifestyle, salary, etc.? is the board consensus here t14 or bust? i know people in law school at like, "top 100" programs. are they wasting money? what are they going to do with those jds? is there a point in them going for a jd? i used gulc just as an example comparing it to something like gw or even texas. what's happening to all the lawyers going to "top 50" schools? do you get what I'm getting at?

i guess what im asking/getting at is can someone paint a picture of a t14 grad compared to a t25 or t50 grad?

[twenty]

Honestly, if you're super debt adverse, law school is probably not the best option for you. Because of your GPA, you're always going to be in a situation where you'll either have a great job with a ton of debt, or a meh job with a little debt. Your masters might help you in other areas (i.e, getting a job post-law school), but it's not going to help you at all in getting in.

The good news is, if you actually want government work, your school name is going to matter significantly less than it would for biglaw. Perhaps this summer, start volunteering at a local city attorney's office in the area you plan on doing law school in, stay there for the first month or so of 1L, come back for the second semester after finals, etc. So it's not all doom and gloom.

is the board consensus here t14 or bust?

In a lot of ways, yes, and the reason why is because biglaw is presumably the best way to pay off your school debt. You really only get that from a T14. Therefore...

On the other hand, if you don't have any real debt to begin with, it's not going to be the end of the world if you're an unemployed graduate or if you're working in document review for $20/hr. So that's more or less the reason why.

[yowhat]

Honestly, if you're super debt adverse, law school is probably not the best option for you. Because of your GPA, you're always going to be in a situation where you'll either have a great job with a ton of debt, or a meh job with a little debt. Your masters might help you in other areas (i.e, getting a job post-law school), but it's not going to help you at all in getting in.

The good news is, if you actually want government work, your school name is going to matter significantly less than it would for biglaw. Perhaps this summer, start volunteering at a local city attorney's office in the area you plan on doing law school in, stay there for the first month or so of 1L, come back for the second semester after finals, etc. So it's not all doom and gloom.

is the board consensus here t14 or bust?

In a lot of ways, yes, and the reason why is because biglaw is presumably the best way to pay off your school debt. You really only get that from a T14. Therefore...

On the other hand, if you don't have any real debt to begin with, it's not going to be the end of the world if you're an unemployed graduate or if you're working in document review for $20/hr. So that's more or less the reason why.

i'm not necessarily trying to graduate with absolutely zero debt; i can take and handle some. i also don't want to work biglaw. this seems like crazy talk here i know but i don't want to work big law. i don't feel this overwhelming sense of defeat going to a t20 instead of a t14. i want a law degree from a strong, reputable school and i want to do it with scholarship/grant money so i graduate with manageable debt and some viable career prospects in govt/public interest.

i said want because they're jus that-- wants. but honest question: is that too much to ask?

secondly, still looking for some insight on those lawyers toiling away at a t100...

thanks again, all.

[BigZuck]

Many of the "lawyers" toiling away at T100s are not actually becoming lawyers. IN DROVES.

If there is a particular school you are interested in, check out lawschooltransparency.com

[twenty]

Honestly, if you're super debt adverse, law school is probably not the best option for you. Because of your GPA, you're always going to be in a situation where you'll either have a great job with a ton of debt, or a meh job with a little debt. Your masters might help you in other areas (i.e, getting a job post-law school), but it's not going to help you at all in getting in.

The good news is, if you actually want government work, your school name is going to matter significantly less than it would for biglaw. Perhaps this summer, start volunteering at a local city attorney's office in the area you plan on doing law school in, stay there for the first month or so of 1L, come back for the second semester after finals, etc. So it's not all doom and gloom.

is the board consensus here t14 or bust?

In a lot of ways, yes, and the reason why is because biglaw is presumably the best way to pay off your school debt. You really only get that from a T14. Therefore...

On the other hand, if you don't have any real debt to begin with, it's not going to be the end of the world if you're an unemployed graduate or if you're working in document review for $20/hr. So that's more or less the reason why.

i'm not necessarily trying to graduate with absolutely zero debt; i can take and handle some. i also don't want to work biglaw. this seems like crazy talk here i know but i don't want to work big law. i don't feel this overwhelming sense of defeat going to a t20 instead of a t14. i want a law degree from a strong, reputable school and i want to do it with scholarship/grant money so i graduate with manageable debt and some viable career prospects in govt/public interest.

i said want because they're jus that-- wants. but honest question: is that too much to ask?

secondly, still looking for some insight on those lawyers toiling away at a t100...

thanks again, all.

As someone who equally has absolutely zero interest in biglaw, your overall debt from a solid regional school should be below 50k. The reason why is because a T14's LRAP will bring your (over ten year) debt load down to about the same number with perhaps a minor hiring advantage.

Keep in mind that asking for any legal job for a close-to-free education is asking a lot in this era. Your LSAT is fairly good, but you should honestly consider retaking. That said, I think you're in a position to enjoy a decent legal career if you play your cards right.

[OutCold]

so, back to my other question. how much do things change between t14 and say, top 25, in terms of career prospects, lifestyle, salary, etc.? is the board consensus here t14 or bust? i know people in law school at like, "top 100" programs. are they wasting money? what are they going to do with those jds? is there a point in them going for a jd? i used gulc just as an example comparing it to something like gw or even texas. what's happening to all the lawyers going to "top 50" schools? do you get what I'm getting at?

i guess what im asking/getting at is can someone paint a picture of a t14 grad compared to a t25 or t50 grad?

This is about the best data you can get (though it doesn't take clerkships into account). You can see the drop off in terms of what percentage of the class is getting NLJ250 jobs from the T14 to the other tiers. http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

[koval]

This thread is awesome, 3.33 and 167 in October with the December retake still pending. Learning a ton based on this guys circumstances.

[koval]

Honestly, if you're super debt adverse, law school is probably not the best option for you. Because of your GPA, you're always going to be in a situation where you'll either have a great job with a ton of debt, or a meh job with a little debt. Your masters might help you in other areas (i.e, getting a job post-law school), but it's not going to help you at all in getting in.

The good news is, if you actually want government work, your school name is going to matter significantly less than it would for biglaw. Perhaps this summer, start volunteering at a local city attorney's office in the area you plan on doing law school in, stay there for the first month or so of 1L, come back for the second semester after finals, etc. So it's not all doom and gloom.

is the board consensus here t14 or bust?

In a lot of ways, yes, and the reason why is because biglaw is presumably the best way to pay off your school debt. You really only get that from a T14. Therefore...

On the other hand, if you don't have any real debt to begin with, it's not going to be the end of the world if you're an unemployed graduate or if you're working in document review for $20/hr. So that's more or less the reason why.

i'm not necessarily trying to graduate with absolutely zero debt; i can take and handle some. i also don't want to work biglaw. this seems like crazy talk here i know but i don't want to work big law. i don't feel this overwhelming sense of defeat going to a t20 instead of a t14. i want a law degree from a strong, reputable school and i want to do it with scholarship/grant money so i graduate with manageable debt and some viable career prospects in govt/public interest.

i said want because they're jus that-- wants. but honest question: is that too much to ask?

secondly, still looking for some insight on those lawyers toiling away at a t100...

thanks again, all.

As someone who equally has absolutely zero interest in biglaw, your overall debt from a solid regional school should be below 50k. The reason why is because a T14's LRAP will bring your (over ten year) debt load down to about the same number with perhaps a minor hiring advantage.

Keep in mind that asking for any legal job for a close-to-free education is asking a lot in this era. Your LSAT is fairly good, but you should honestly consider retaking. That said, I think you're in a position to enjoy a decent legal career if you play your cards right.

What's your definition of a solid regional, T20? T1?

[twenty]

What's your definition of a solid regional, T20? T1?

There's no absolute cut-off. I wouldn't be caught dead going to American University (56 on USNWR), but I would highly recommend University of New Mexico (69) or LSU (76) for free if you have ties. Hell, LSU's overall "placement in a legal job" numbers are better than UCLA or Georgetown.