3.7, 173 Forum

[nsv]

I want to attend one of the following - Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, USC, or Loyola. What are my chances of getting into one of those? I am not in a rush, my current job pays well and I am quite happy waiting another year if a higher LSAT score would boost my chances. The 173 was achieved with 95% effort, I studied for 3 months prior to the exam. The only issue might be the fact that my undergraduate degree is in computer science. I have been told different things. A few people have told me that T1 schools look for applicants who have taken courses pertaining to law or have some experience in law. I received my degree in computer science back in 2010 and have been working as a software architect since then. Maybe I should look into getting a Ph.D. in my field and forget about law school. Any help would be much appreciated.

[jbagelboy]

You dont need to take any classes related to law as an undergraduate. Whoever told you that was completely speaking out of their ass. Your compsci degree makes you even more favorable in several fields of law. Writing strength will be considered at the T6 level, but thats very different from "legal" courses.

That being said, Id definitely take that degree and go make $80-110K as a software engineer for a few yrs before seriously considering law school. Compsci is SO lucrative these days -- your personal ROI for law school or a Ph.D is pretty bad right now. Definitely see what the job market has to offer, especially if you attended a top UG.

With 173/3.7, your definitely in with $$ at UCLA/USC (forget about Loyola..), but its an awkward place for Cal. I got in with 172/3.7 so its definitely possible, but they are GPA heavy and its tough to predict. Craft a strong overall application with some "why law" and some "why Cal" and you'll be fine. Stanford is extremely unlikely.

Lastly, throw apps to Michigan, Penn, Duke, and even H/CCN unless you're 110% set on CA. You'll need matching scholarship offers for Boalt, and its good to have some other stronger options than UCLA/USC in case the bay area schools dont work out.

[wtrc]

You dont need to take any classes related to law as an undergraduate. Whoever told you that was completely speaking out of their ass. Your compsci degree makes you even more favorable in several fields of law. Writing strength will be considered at the T6 level, but thats very different from "legal" courses.

That being said, Id definitely take that degree and go make $80-110K as a software engineer for a few yrs before seriously considering law school. Compsci is SO lucrative these days -- your personal ROI for law school or a Ph.D is pretty bad right now. Definitely see what the job market has to offer, especially if you attended a top UG.

With 173/3.7, your definitely in with $$ at UCLA/USC (forget about Loyola..), but its an awkward place for Cal. I got in with 172/3.7 so its definitely possible, but they are GPA heavy and its tough to predict. Craft a strong overall application with some "why law" and some "why Cal" and you'll be fine. Stanford is extremely unlikely.

Lastly, throw apps to Michigan, Penn, Duke, and even H/CCN unless you're 110% set on CA. You'll need matching scholarship offers for Boalt, and its good to have some other stronger options than UCLA/USC in case the bay area schools dont work out.

Stanford- definitely apply. I disagree about it being "extremely unlikely," especially since you have seemingly impressive work experience. This cycle is going to be a fun one. You are at the 75th percentile for LSAT -- probably above it by now -- and y'all are a rarity. Just below the 25th for GPA.

Berkeley- I would think you are in, even though they do love GPA's, the 3.7 isn't awful.. you are within the 25th for GPA and waaay above the 75th for LSAT (170)

UCLA- In with $$$ unless they want to yp
USC- Same
Loyola- same with above poster, you are too qualified.

[nsv]

Thank you for the great advice. I really don't know who else to ask. Is there anything I can do to make my application stronger? I do have 3 strong letters of recommendation from my undergrad days. I am planning on applying to all of the top 15 law schools. Even though Yale/Harvard will most likely laugh at my application but it never hurts to try. My goal is to stay in California because most of my family lives here. It never hurts to have a few backups. I will take Loyola off the list, a few of the lawyers that work in our in-house counsel graduated from Loyola. I always thought it was considered prestigious in Southern California.

[Ramius]

Definitely worth an app at HYS and you look pretty solid beyond that. Good luck.

[jbagelboy]

Thank you for the great advice. I really don't know who else to ask. Is there anything I can do to make my application stronger? I do have 3 strong letters of recommendation from my undergrad days. I am planning on applying to all of the top 15 law schools. Even though Yale/Harvard will most likely laugh at my application but it never hurts to try. My goal is to stay in California because most of my family lives here. It never hurts to have a few backups. I will take Loyola off the list, a few of the lawyers that work in our in-house counsel graduated from Loyola. I always thought it was considered prestigious in Southern California.

A while ago, back when LA had even a taste of functional economc planning and a growing legal market, loyola was well regarded and produced many successful attoreys. Sunce 2007 this has not been the case. No matter how highly local firms and lmu alumns may "think" of the school prestige-wise, with 30% of UCLA grads looking for any FT legal work they can find and coming up short (who firm would presumably eat up first), you can only imagine what the loyola grads w/o connections or top quarter are up to.

[jbagelboy]

You dont need to take any classes related to law as an undergraduate. Whoever told you that was completely speaking out of their ass. Your compsci degree makes you even more favorable in several fields of law. Writing strength will be considered at the T6 level, but thats very different from "legal" courses.

That being said, Id definitely take that degree and go make $80-110K as a software engineer for a few yrs before seriously considering law school. Compsci is SO lucrative these days -- your personal ROI for law school or a Ph.D is pretty bad right now. Definitely see what the job market has to offer, especially if you attended a top UG.

With 173/3.7, your definitely in with $$ at UCLA/USC (forget about Loyola..), but its an awkward place for Cal. I got in with 172/3.7 so its definitely possible, but they are GPA heavy and its tough to predict. Craft a strong overall application with some "why law" and some "why Cal" and you'll be fine. Stanford is extremely unlikely.

Lastly, throw apps to Michigan, Penn, Duke, and even H/CCN unless you're 110% set on CA. You'll need matching scholarship offers for Boalt, and its good to have some other stronger options than UCLA/USC in case the bay area schools dont work out.

Stanford- definitely apply. I disagree about it being "extremely unlikely," especially since you have seemingly impressive work experience. This cycle is going to be a fun one. You are at the 75th percentile for LSAT -- probably above it by now -- and y'all are a rarity. Just below the 25th for GPA.

Berkeley- I would think you are in, even though they do love GPA's, the 3.7 isn't awful.. you are within the 25th for GPA and waaay above the 75th for LSAT (170)

UCLA- In with $$$ unless they want to yp
USC- Same
Loyola- same with above poster, you are too qualified.

I dont mean to discourage Stanford. Definitely apply (and Harvard). But Im being realistic with the numbers. If you look at LSN, you'll see Stanford couldnt really care less if you're a point or two above their LSAT median or even 75th. You'll need that strong GPA (or urm). 173/3.7 just doesnt have a great track record there -- look at the mylsn posted above.

Still, the 15 (isnt it 16 with USC?) schools plan is good. Best of luck'

[KremeCheez]

Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.
I was a virtual numbers twin this past cycle. I expected to get in at maybe (2) CCN and most everywhere on down.
I expected to have to make a decision on Columbia at sticker vs $ at Penn/Berkeley vs $$$ the lower T14.
Instead, I applied late, and got waitlisted almost everywhere (Harvard on down to Georgetown). Northwestern was the ONLY T14 I got into. Luckily for me they gave me the $$$ I would have expected and I'm in love with Northwestern and the city of Chicago.
I can only assume it was my late application that screwed me.
So...apply early. Apply early. Apply early.

[wtrc]

Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.
I was a virtual numbers twin this past cycle. I expected to get in at maybe (2) CCN and most everywhere on down.
I expected to have to make a decision on Columbia at sticker vs $ at Penn/Berkeley vs $$$ the lower T14.
Instead, I applied late, and got waitlisted almost everywhere (Harvard on down to Georgetown). Northwestern was the ONLY T14 I got into. Luckily for me they gave me the $$$ I would have expected and I'm in love with Northwestern and the city of Chicago.
I can only assume it was my late application that screwed me.
So...apply early. Apply early. Apply early.

What do you define as early? And when did you apply?

[Ramius]

Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.
I was a virtual numbers twin this past cycle. I expected to get in at maybe (2) CCN and most everywhere on down.
I expected to have to make a decision on Columbia at sticker vs $ at Penn/Berkeley vs $$$ the lower T14.
Instead, I applied late, and got waitlisted almost everywhere (Harvard on down to Georgetown). Northwestern was the ONLY T14 I got into. Luckily for me they gave me the $$$ I would have expected and I'm in love with Northwestern and the city of Chicago.
I can only assume it was my late application that screwed me.
So...apply early. Apply early. Apply early.

What do you define as early? And when did you apply?

General wisdom is before Halloween is considered early, before Thanksgiving is still good and anytime during the holidays and after the new year is a late app.

[KremeCheez]

Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.
I was a virtual numbers twin this past cycle. I expected to get in at maybe (2) CCN and most everywhere on down.
I expected to have to make a decision on Columbia at sticker vs $ at Penn/Berkeley vs $$$ the lower T14.
Instead, I applied late, and got waitlisted almost everywhere (Harvard on down to Georgetown). Northwestern was the ONLY T14 I got into. Luckily for me they gave me the $$$ I would have expected and I'm in love with Northwestern and the city of Chicago.
I can only assume it was my late application that screwed me.
So...apply early. Apply early. Apply early.

What do you define as early? And when did you apply?

General wisdom is before Halloween is considered early, before Thanksgiving is still good and anytime during the holidays and after the new year is a late app.

I suppose the general wisdom is probably good on this one.
All my apps went out at the very end of January (a day or two before the first chunk of deadlines 2/1).

[Motivator9]

I think Berkley would love to have you.

[ThetaX]

Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.
I was a virtual numbers twin this past cycle. I expected to get in at maybe (2) CCN and most everywhere on down.
I expected to have to make a decision on Columbia at sticker vs $ at Penn/Berkeley vs $$$ the lower T14.
Instead, I applied late, and got waitlisted almost everywhere (Harvard on down to Georgetown). Northwestern was the ONLY T14 I got into. Luckily for me they gave me the $$$ I would have expected and I'm in love with Northwestern and the city of Chicago.
I can only assume it was my late application that screwed me.
So...apply early. Apply early. Apply early.

You sound like an exceptional case. I take it that some of the lower T14 were yield-protecting since a 3.7/173 are strong numbers for them.

[radar714]

GL with your cycle, that 173 is gonna make it rain with apps falling. I think you'll have a good shot at Berkeley (but you never know), but if you're debt averse and 100% committed to Cali, you should consider USC for it's Rothman Scholarship, which is a full-ride + guaranteed 1L SA at Skadden. Your # will make you very competitive.

More info: http://weblaw.usc.edu/how/jd/rothman/

But ya definitely apply broadly, and don't accept anything short of 75%-Full Ride at USC/UCLA