HYS probabilities Forum

[heywatchitbuddy]

Hey guys, since HYS are more holistic than other schools, I was wondering if I could get an opinion on my chances at them, although its still somewhat hypothetical. Basically what I want to know is if I should count out Yale and maybe Stanford since I don't have great softs. Here are the facts of my app:
The Good:
4.0 and applying next fall, so last semester of grades right now. Don't expect it to drop, if anything it'll still be like a 3.97
PTing 170s with little practice so far (yeah I know no real LSAT yet, I'm taking in june)
Good undergrad - umich

The Bad:
K-JD
Graduating in three years (although I'm not sure how much this hurts)
Average/boring research job is my only real WE
Average recs probably
Very average other softs (fraternity leadership position, club sport etc)
Not URM/woman/anything


So let's assume I'm above 75th for GPA and at median (~173) for LSAT at HYS. Will the blandness of my application lead to rejections, specifically at Y and S? Also does my lack of being diverse or interesting at all put me in jeopardy at any other T14s even if I have above 75th numbers (Boalt maybe)? Thanks guys.

[EvilClinton]

Come back when you have a real LSAT score.

[Systematic1]

Come back when you have a real LSAT score.

[Yukos]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

[PRgradBYU]

Come back when you have a real LSAT score.

TCR. It's a waste of everyone's time to discuss hypothetical situations.

[heywatchitbuddy]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

thank you this is what I was looking for. LSN suggests that H is considerably more numbers based than the other two, do you think I would probably be successful even with my average softs if I had the numbers?

[Yukos]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

thank you this is what I was looking for. LSN suggests that H is considerably more numbers based than the other two, do you think I would probably be successful even with my average softs if I had the numbers?

I already answered this in my post.

I don't mind answering this hypo because IMO if he's really HYS or bust he should be focusing on securing good WE experience right now.

[Mal Reynolds]

With a 162 LSAT you have virtually no chance. Don't waste your time.

[DoubleChecks]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

I'm a 3L now, so maybe the law school adcomm world has changed in the interim, but when I applied, it was not this harsh. Again, a LOT depends on the actual LSAT score. 4.0 GPA is very nice and shiny to law schools, and K-JD is not that big of an issue except maybe at YLS. Now YLS does seem out, but HLS seems a lock and SLS seems very possible too, assuming you get a middle-ish LSAT. I'm basing this off my own experiences. I was K-JD with no significant experiences. LoRs were probably alright, but not amazing. Nothing on my resume that was :O shockingly awesome, imo. I wrote a great PS and I was proud of my overall application -- it fit. But really, w/o a real LSAT number, this is sort of dumb haha. 170 and I will say HYS is pretty tough. 178 and I will say all 3 possible, w/ HLS a lock and SLS essentially a lock as well. Y more of a crapshoot. I know some people who mainly just had superior numbers and got in, so it is possible...but YLS really is tougher to predict and requires more in softs.

[DoubleChecks]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

thank you this is what I was looking for. LSN suggests that H is considerably more numbers based than the other two, do you think I would probably be successful even with my average softs if I had the numbers?

I already answered this in my post.

I don't mind answering this hypo because IMO if he's really HYS or bust he should be focusing on securing good WE experience right now.

If his shot is HLS in particular, I say focusing on the LSAT more important than 1 yr of WE. Obviously they aren't mutually exclusive, and it depends on the WE, but H really is more numbers based (and SLS is prob LESS softs-based than ppl on TLS seem to think, but still less numbers-based than HLS).

[Yukos]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

thank you this is what I was looking for. LSN suggests that H is considerably more numbers based than the other two, do you think I would probably be successful even with my average softs if I had the numbers?

I already answered this in my post.

I don't mind answering this hypo because IMO if he's really HYS or bust he should be focusing on securing good WE experience right now.

If his shot is HLS in particular, I say focusing on the LSAT more important than 1 yr of WE. Obviously they aren't mutually exclusive, and it depends on the WE, but H really is more numbers based (and SLS is prob LESS softs-based than ppl on TLS seem to think, but still less numbers-based than HLS).

There's just a noticeable amount of people in the HLS waiting thread with superior numbers who have been held/dinged, while plenty of others with weaker numbers get in (this is obviously really anecdotal). I feel like if a 4.0/173 didn't get into HLS it would be something like this case: weak extracurriculars, vague LoRs, K-JD. Doesn't mean he wouldn't get in, but his odds would be lower than his numbers suggest (which was my original point).

EDIT: I accidentally'd a word.

[heywatchitbuddy]

Not to be harsh, but I think your chances would be low relative to your numbers (assuming you get 172+). A K-JD is already disadvantaged at these schools (since they want you to have an interesting background and it's difficult without having been out of a school for a year or two), and you lack anything else that would set you apart (impressive research experience, great LoRs, URM status, etc.). That's not to say you won't get in, but there's plenty of people with equal numbers to yours who have been dinged from HLS, and as you know SLS/YLS care even less about your numbers.

IMO you should try to pick up some interesting work experience next year and give the adcom something to like about you beyond your numbers. Also, try to develop a relationship with one or two profs in your last semester so they can write a better LoR next year.

ETA: Assuming you don't mess up the LSAT (which is a pretty big assumption actually, many people, myself included, hit way below their test average on game day) you're T6 secure anyway, so it's not like you're in a bad spot. HYS is just another level.

I'm a 3L now, so maybe the law school adcomm world has changed in the interim, but when I applied, it was not this harsh. Again, a LOT depends on the actual LSAT score. 4.0 GPA is very nice and shiny to law schools, and K-JD is not that big of an issue except maybe at YLS. Now YLS does seem out, but HLS seems a lock and SLS seems very possible too, assuming you get a middle-ish LSAT. I'm basing this off my own experiences. I was K-JD with no significant experiences. LoRs were probably alright, but not amazing. Nothing on my resume that was :O shockingly awesome, imo. I wrote a great PS and I was proud of my overall application -- it fit. But really, w/o a real LSAT number, this is sort of dumb haha. 170 and I will say HYS is pretty tough. 178 and I will say all 3 possible, w/ HLS a lock and SLS essentially a lock as well. Y more of a crapshoot. I know some people who mainly just had superior numbers and got in, so it is possible...but YLS really is tougher to predict and requires more in softs.

Thanks for the response and not throwing a fit like some of the overly aggressive aspies on TLS. Right now I'm thinking I'll just see how my cycle goes and only take a year off if I really underperform.

[20141023]

.

[bernaldiaz]

There's just a noticeable amount of people in the HLS waiting thread with superior numbers who have been held/dinged, while plenty of others with weaker numbers get in (this is obviously really anecdotal). I feel like if a 4.0/173 didn't get into HLS it would be something like this case: weak extracurriculars, vague LoRs, K-JD. Doesn't mean he wouldn't get in his odds would be lower than his numbers suggest (which was my original point).

Yeah... and of course, Pacifica is the absolute best example of this. His GPA / LSAT were actually kind of "meh" for HYS, but his softs helped him crush this cycle.

But then again I've had a pretty similar cycle to Pacifica (with one big exception though ) and I am as vanilla of a k-jd as there is. Heck I even made my PS vanilla on purpose just to play it safe. I think if you're 3.92+ (or whatever the HY medians are) and 173+ you'll get some amazing outcomes regardless of the rest of your app, unless your softs and PS/LORs actually detract.

[DoubleChecks]

There's just a noticeable amount of people in the HLS waiting thread with superior numbers who have been held/dinged, while plenty of others with weaker numbers get in (this is obviously really anecdotal). I feel like if a 4.0/173 didn't get into HLS it would be something like this case: weak extracurriculars, vague LoRs, K-JD. Doesn't mean he wouldn't get in his odds would be lower than his numbers suggest (which was my original point).

Sorry, I only meant that, given a limited pool of energy and effort (say 100), it might still be more beneficial for the 100 to be spent on studying harder for the LSAT and scoring, say 2 pts higher, than spending that time on boosting extra curriculars. Again, not mutually exclusive since he could do both and it would just be a sliding scale. Also, he could take a yr off after the LSAT and end up sort of getting both. A rather moot point at this juncture.

Finally, some who don't get in (not specifically talking about anyone in the HLS thread) just had really crappy phone interviews. 75% who get phone interviews get in, but that means 25% don't. Some of them just do ridiculous things (that I have heard of), like putting the interviewer on hold to feed the dog. It happens, and they don't even realize it was something bad to do haha.