Need advice beyond law school calculator Forum

[ashawnt]

OK guys so here are my stats
I have a 3.46 cumulative Sociology Major from UCR (3.81) degree granting G.P.A. My cumulative is low due to my poor performance in community college and an F that got factored into my G.P.A. I took the OCt 2012 LSAt and got a 157( iwas averaging in the low 160's going in) I was going to retake tomorrow but my latest PT's have been lower than what I was getting going into OCT and didn't wan't to run the risk of getting the same score or even lower. Before everyone tells me that my G.P.A is decent and that I should take time off to retake I would like to inform you of the following facts.

I took a full testmasters course as well as private tutoring and have taken every single preptest known to man. I started around a 137 on my cold tests last summer while in the course and got my pt's up to mid 150's by the end. I decided to take a year off to restudy for another 3 1/2 months prior to oct (with private tutoring) and unfortunately did not improve much from there 162 average 165 high and obviously a 157 on the day of. I feel like the make thing that inhibited me on this test was RC which is obviously the least improvable section but also general burnout from studying 6 days a week 5-6 hours a day. I know that a couple of points higher would open a lot of doors for me but as of this point I just wan't to apply and get my apps before Dec 10th so at least im applying somewhat earlier in the cycle.That way if I don't get into any schools Im ok with attending I still have two attempts left. My questions for you are the following.

How accurate is law school predictor? Should I even bother to apply to schools that state deny or under 10% chance?

Should I write an addendum for my G.P.A to explain the huge upward trend, my LSAT or both?

What are my Chances at cracking a end of t1 or top of T2 such as American or Loyola?

How broadly should I apply?

Why would William and Marry give me a fee waiver when I'm so much below there medians lol ?

[dingbat]

quick answer: do not attend a law school that would admit a candidate with a 157 LSAT

[ashawnt]

Dingbat unfortunately not everyone can get into a Tier 1 law school but still wanna be lawyers. I need constructive criticism and legitimate advice. I wish I scored higher than I did but I still made a major improvement and am quite proud of that. I know plenty of people who go to T2 or T3 and transfer out to T1 which is what I am planning on as of this point.

By the way how much do you guys think ed to American would help my chances there... Im right at thier median G.P.A and their LSAT is 156 25% and 159 median....

[dingbat]

I'll echo the mantra - don't attend a school hoping to transfer to a better school.

That was a quick answer. There are reasons where it's not applicable. Do not spend $50k/year in tuition to go to America. If you get a scholarship, no problem. Otherwise, go to a cheaper school.

Law school predictor is just a predictor. Feel free to apply wherever you want (but try to get fee waivers).

Feel free to write an addendum about your GPA, but don't expect it to help much. Don't write an addendum for your LSAT (there's nothing to write about)

You should be able to get into some semi-decent schools. But keep in mind that a school ranked 90 isn't that different than a school ranked 60. Keep total cost in mind and go for the cheapest option available to you

Apply as broadly as you want, but all schools in that range are regional so only apply to schools in regions where you want to end up

Schools give out fee waivers for a number of reasons. The cynical answer is that the more applications they get, the more applicants they get to reject, the better their yield placement ratio - which helps determine their rank

[North]

Dingbat unfortunately not everyone can get into a Tier 1 law school but still wanna be lawyers. I need constructive criticism and legitimate advice. I wish I scored higher than I did but I still made a major improvement and am quite proud of that. I know plenty of people who go to T2 or T3 and transfer out to T1 which is what I am planning on as of this point.

By the way how much do you guys think ed to American would help my chances there... Im right at thier median G.P.A and their LSAT is 156 25% and 159 median....

You need to retake the LSAT. I started at a 152, got a 168, and am still retaking tomorrow. You're selling yourself short and probably ruining your life if you do what you're planning in the above paragraph. Seriously.

Here's are your chances at becoming a lawyer out of American. About 2/3 of the class don't practice law. Note the $253,621 price tag in red. Would you bet a quarter million dollars on a 33% chance at making what is probably the same salary you could make right now?

Here's Loyola. $225,903 for a 44% chance.

Here's a thread where people who went to way better schools than you're planning to attend talk about having no future and committing suicide because of their crushing debt and lack of job prospects.

Here's a thread full of people who made huge gains on the LSAT by putting hard work into it.

There's a 90% chance you won't be able to transfer to a better school, because you generally have to be in the top 10% of your class to make a transfer worthwhile.

If you ACTUALLY want to be a lawyer, take the time and put in the work to do it right. Dingbat is right, and this IS constructive criticism and legitimate advice. It's just not what you want to hear.

Here's a good place to start in the LSAT prep forum.

[bizzybone1313]

Read all the Manhattan guides before retaking the test, especially the LR and RC ones. DON'T TAKE THE TEST UNTIL YOU DO THIS!!!!!

[dextermorgan]

I sympathize with you. I understand that you really want to be a lawyer. The problem is that it is very unlikely that you will be, and you will be in a lot of debt. It's not just missing out on biglaw. There are grads at Tier 2, 3, and 4 schools that would kill to be a personal injury attorney, but they can't get a job in the legal field period. If you wait a few years it is entirely possible that the legal market could change drastically, but right now going to law school would be a terrible decision.

[ScottRiqui]

Dingbat unfortunately not everyone can get into a Tier 1 law school but still wanna be lawyers. I need constructive criticism and legitimate advice.

You may not be getting the advice you want, but it's still sound advice. If someone comes to you and says "I wanna be a jockey, but I'm 5'6" and weigh 200 pounds, you're not doing him any favors if you tell him "get the biggest horse you can find and hope for the best." If you actually care about his future success, the right answer is "reconsider your career path, or at least put it off until you lose weight."

[North]

You may not be getting the advice you want, but it's still sound advice. If someone comes to you and says "I wanna be a jockey, but I'm 5'6" and weigh 200 pounds, you're not doing him any favors if you tell him "get the biggest horse you can find and hope for the best." If you actually care about his future success, the right answer is "reconsider your career path, or at least put it off until you lose weight."

One of the better analogies I've seen. Nice.

[bobbypin]

You may not be getting the advice you want, but it's still sound advice. If someone comes to you and says "I wanna be a jockey, but I'm 5'6" and weigh 200 pounds, you're not doing him any favors if you tell him "get the biggest horse you can find and hope for the best." If you actually care about his future success, the right answer is "reconsider your career path, or at least put it off until you lose weight."

One of the better analogies I've seen. Nice.

agreed

[WhiteyCakes]

Dingbat unfortunately not everyone can get into a Tier 1 law school but still wanna be lawyers. I need constructive criticism and legitimate advice.

You're a douche

[wbrother]

OP, retake in June. Submit super early for the next cycle, since you'll likely have everything ready. If you're capable of getting a 157, you're capable of getting a 165 IMHO. If you're pting lower I don't think you should retake tomorrow.

[Nova]

Youre better off at a regional TT than going 200k in debt to attend American. Only about 1/3 grads get full time longer term legal jobs at American.

[dingbat]

I really hate to say it, but, with some exceptions, I'm not sure someone scoring below 160 should go to law school. Anyone care to make an argument for?

[justonemoregame]

Visit American if you haven't, or DC if you haven't. If that's your vibe, and you feel like a rockstar, then ED American. I bet they'd take you. I mean, they'll probably be shocked as shit to see your app. considering all the bad press and generally sound arguments as to why it's an awful idea to attend their school. But I digress.

Always keep in mind that key decisions in life, at least for Americans, is all about what you want. Are you an American, OP? Then ED American!!

[Nova]

I really hate to say it, but, with some exceptions, I'm not sure someone scoring below 160 should go to law school. Anyone care to make an argument for?

Generally, I agree.

One exception that comes to mind would be

attending a cheap state school

in an unsaturated market

that gives scholarships to high 150s (Texas Tech)

which may lead to a modest, yet fulfilling, career

without being crippled by debt.

[North]

Unfortunately, OP hasn't been back since she blew up on Dingbat. Shame.

[ashawnt]

Hey guys sorry for the late response. First off i'd appreciate it if some of you would stop mentioning the disaster legal market we will be entering. I am fairly active on TlS and am fully aware of the current state of the economy
And the crap job prospects people have at even T1 schools. Many of you did not realize that I'n
My original post I stated that I was not ready for my dec LSAT and want to apply anyways to see where I can get into. The idea of retaking in June and applying next year is one that will be implemented if I can't get into anywhere decent as is. I realize that people bash on American but at the end of the day I feel those unemployment statistics come from the bottom of the class. I bet someone who is in the bottom 25% of there class at a t-20 will have a harder time getting a job than someone who is top 25% at a strong regional school. My goal is to get into a strong regional school..or a decent T2 with low state tuition....So please any advice given should be directed toward achieving those goals.


So LSP gave me weak considers at the following schools how accurate does this seem



Loyola Marymount
USD
Tulane
American
University of Illinois
George Mason
Universit of Colorodo Boulder
UC Hastings

And thought this was random University of Minnesota! My highest ranked weak consider(19)
LSP seems a little overly optimistic..what do you guys think? I have FEe waivers to some of these school but planning on applying to all of them.

[North]

You've got your head pretty deep in the sand there.

Are there any other terrible ideas you'd like us to rubber-stamp while you're here?

[dingbat]

I bet someone who is in the bottom 25% of there class at a t-20 will have a harder time getting a job than someone who is top 25% at a strong regional school.

You are correct. However, you have no way of knowing whether you'll be in the top 25% or the bottom 25%. And don't say you'll study harder. Half my section was putting in 12 hour days in September.

My goal is to get into a strong regional school..or a decent T2 with low state tuition

This is the most intelligent thing you've said so far

Loyola Marymount
USD
Tulane
American
University of Illinois
George Mason
Universit of Colorodo Boulder
UC Hastings


And thought this was random University of Minnesota! My highest ranked weak consider(19)

Don't go to Loyola, American, George Mason or UC Hastings - They're not even the second best school in their market.

San Diego and Tulane are too expensive at sticker. However, San Diego is very generous to people with high numbers and Tulane gives scholarships to well over half the class. So if you can snag some money, go for it.
Illinois and Boulder are too expensive at out-of-state rates, but if you can get in-state tuition they become more reasonable. Even then, almost 3/4 of UIUC students get financial aid. Don't be the sucker paying full price.

Minnesota, if you can get in, is worth in-state tuition; at out-of-state rates it's a bit harder to justify. However, considering how many students get a discount, if you can snag one the school becomes a lot more affordable.

Most importantly, would you actually be willing to live in each of these areas? Whichever school you pick, that's the region you will probably be living for the rest of your life (unless you're a complete idiot, which for purposes of this thread I will assume you are not)

[Nova]

LSP is not that great.

Use http://www.Mylsn.info

I cant tell what your LSAC GPA is from your post. is it 3.5 or 3.8??

[BeenDidThat]

I really hate to say it, but, with some exceptions, I'm not sure someone scoring below 160 should go to law school. Anyone care to make an argument for?

Pretty much only if money's not an issue (independently wealthy).

[ashawnt]

Dingbat. I understand that competition is cut throat in Law School. The point I was trying to make is that regardless of what institution you attend you have to be at the top of your class at that institution and at the very least not in the bottom half. Reducing debt is important but if you have no job and are in 100K debt versus 200k debt your going to be screwed either way! Also I would have to disagree that just because American, Loyola etc are in competitive regions that one is completely screwed. Yes if you are going to Loyola in Los Angeles you have to compete with students from UCLA and USC as well as Pepperdine .But i have plenty of friends who go to Loyola and are making six figure salaries right now. But these are individuals who are in the top 20% of there class which I know is not easy but all hope is not lost. I also have a relative that is graduating from American this year and already has a 155k salary job. Most of the state schools i'm applying to for example UNLV you can establish residency in a year. In which case you would be spending 33k 22k 22k and most likely be able to get out of law school with under 100k debt in a worst case scenario that you cant transfer somehwere stronger. Some of the schools i'm applying to I would never consider going but am still applying just in case they offer me some scholly money and I can use them as leverage for scholly money at places I do wan't to attend. I'm from southern california so I would like to stay in this area but I also have lots of family in northern California, DC and virginia so those would be great options for me as well. Arizona, UNLV and Colorado I will also be happy attending if I get in obviously do to there close proximity to southern california.

Iowa, Minnesota, Texas and some other states of the sort im more iffy about. For example if I got into Iowa I would wan't to transfer out even if it's not to a better ranked school but a similarly ranked school in California such as UC Davis. I imagine that trying to transfer to a similarly ranked school or even one that is slightly lower ranked is much easier to do than transferring up in rank. Any thoughts on this? My current debate is whether it is worth it to E.D to American. How much would it help my chances of admission? Is it worth the risk involved if for example I somehow sneak into a T2 with some scholly or a better T1 that is lower tuition such as Hastings.

To clairfy I have a 3.46 cumulative G.P.A but my degree granting G.PA which is on the bottom left of your academic summary report is a 3.81.

[unc0mm0n1]

I really hate to say it, but, with some exceptions, I'm not sure someone scoring below 160 should go to law school. Anyone care to make an argument for?

Generally, I agree.

One exception that comes to mind would be

attending a cheap state school

in an unsaturated market

that gives scholarships to high 150s (Texas Tech)

which may lead to a modest, yet fulfilling, career

without being crippled by debt.

Another would be an AA male, vet who has a 4.0 GPA and 159. That could get you into lower t-14/USC/USCLA/Texas and the 9/11 GI Bill not only will offset most (if not all) of the cost but you'll get a living allowance. I'd most definitely tell that person to go law school.

[dingbat]

Yes, if you're near the top of the class, you can be successful from just about any school (there are some exceptions) Yes, if you're in the bottom 25%, of any school, you're pretty much fucked. But at a school like American, being at median is fairly problematic. Basically, the better the school, the more margin for error you have. Basically, it's a matter of figuring out what price point is worth what kind of odds. If only 25% of a class has a good outcome, but it costs $60,000 less than a school with a 35% chance of a good outcome, is it a better choice? I chose not to go to the kind of school most people on this board would be thrilled to get into after making that kind of calculation.

The first question to ask is, how much risk are you willing to take? Let's say that law school grades are completely random (it isn't, but we will adjust for that later). Would you be willing to bet 3 years of your life (at little to no cost) for a 10% chance? how about a 25% chance? What percentage do you consider reasonable?

Once that's established, I've got a handful more questions, until we get to a price/risk point that is reasonable for you.