3.55/170 URM Forum

[Gtown]

I was wondering what my chances are with T-14 schools. I am Hispanic (Cuban) and I go to Gtown undergrad.

Also, side question, if I want to live/practice in South FL, is it better to go to law school somewhere in FL or to just go to the best law school I can get into?

Thanks!

[Nova]

Cuban is not a URM. Only Mexican and Puerto Rican are. It would be better to go to a T14 than UF/FSU for FL biglaw. You have a good shot at MVP/DNCG. http://myLSN.info/dispresults.php?sk=l5824

[2014]

You should probably go to a T14, but a basically free education from UF/FSU or even Miami given your goals and background would not be a bad idea.

Is your preference:
1. Florida Big Firm > Any Big Firm > Florida Small Firm
2. Florida Big Firm > Florida Small Firm > Any Big Firm

If #2 I would probably lean toward a Florida school assuming basically a full ride.

[Gtown]

That's the thing. I think I could get a full-ride or very close to one at any FL school and since I want to stay and live in South FL, I keep wondering if it is worth it to drop 100K or more on a T-14 when most people that practice in FL have gone to UF/FSU/UM. If I got into a top 5 school, then I would lean toward saying yes it's worth it to drop that much. But in the more likely event that I only get into schools that are lower on the T-14 list, what would be the argument for why I should go there over a top FL school like UF? Would my job prospects really be that much better in FL with a Georgetown degree as opposed to a UF degree?

I honestly do not know exactly where I would like to work at this point, but in reality my ideal situation would be to just have a job in the first place lol. I mean yea it would be great if I could do FL big law, but I would be very happy with any stable, legal job I could get considering the job market.

[justonemoregame]

UF's max scholly is 14K/year and tuition is rising - I think it's over 20K this year. You should get the max with your numbers, but it will leave 20K plus COL on the table, unless you're covered there. That's still a good investment if you'd be fine with any legal job.

[BruceWayne]

That's the thing. I think I could get a full-ride or very close to one at any FL school and since I want to stay and live in South FL, I keep wondering if it is worth it to drop 100K or more on a T-14 when most people that practice in FL have gone to UF/FSU/UM. If I got into a top 5 school, then I would lean toward saying yes it's worth it to drop that much. But in the more likely event that I only get into schools that are lower on the T-14 list, what would be the argument for why I should go there over a top FL school like UF? Would my job prospects really be that much better in FL with a Georgetown degree as opposed to a UF degree?

I honestly do not know exactly where I would like to work at this point, but in reality my ideal situation would be to just have a job in the first place lol. I mean yea it would be great if I could do FL big law, but I would be very happy with any stable, legal job I could get considering the job market.

HELL NO IT'S NOT. Honestly even "top 5" is not worth it for working in South Florida at sticker. FYI "Top 5" is an almost meaningless distinction for purposes of getting a job that was created by this website. If you get into HYS go, regardless of cost, but CCN are definitely NOT worth sticker for working in South Florida. They are probably worth it if you want to work in NYC or are willing to.

Georgetown is most certainly NOT going to do anything for you in South Florida without VERY high grades.
South Florida is a very small market with very few jobs. Everyone I know from Miami that targeted there from my school (UVA) struck out except for one who had excellent full time work experience and was fully bi-lingual. Even they struggled.

South Florida is one of those markets that will prefer top 10 percent Florida, Fl State, or Miami over median or below at any school other than HYS. They just prefer high grades to school name unless you're talking Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. Thus it makes FAR more sense to go to Florida, Florida State, or Miami on a full ride for someone interested in working in South Florida unless they get HYS.

[0heL]

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[0heL]

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[Gtown]

Really you guys think that the only reason I should not stay in state is if i get into HYS? What about other law schools that have good name recognition? Like UChicago or Duke?

Idk I feel like i have heard that UM grads are not having a very easy time finding jobs. Someone said that you need to be like top 15% at UM for Big Law but i think its more like top 20 or 25% to get any substantial job coming straight out of law school. So might UF be a better choice since its ranked better?

O and I definitely would not be ok with practicing in Tally or Gainesville or anywhere north of Palm Beach really lol. Wtf do you do out there?! I couldnt live out there.

[Verity]

BruceWayne is on fucking crack. CCN gets you almost anything, and South FL is no exception.

Plus, long term it's a better investment. You may be offered better opportunities in a different market and change your mind. You never know. If you can get a decent FL school with a full scholly, I can't say that's a bad deal. But t14s open up a world of opportunity that other schools will never ever give you.

[dixon02]

I think the real answer here is that you should not make a decision about where to attend law school solely based on the ability to get back to South Florida unless you are absolutely positive that's where you want to be. You're still in undergrad, so I doubt you're one of these people who is a little older, owns a house, and has a family. You should be as flexible as possible and go to the school that gives you the best chance to get a job.

Think of it this way: you can go to a T14, where if you do well you can go many places and if not, you should still have a shot to hustle your way back to Florida if you work at it. Alternatively, you can go to UF or UM, where if you do well you should have a decent shot at getting a job in Fla (nowhere else), and if not there is an excellent shot you will end up unemployed. Unless you are absolutely tied to Fla for family reasons or something similar, the only rational choice here is the first one.

Also, the idea that CCN will not get you back to Fla is ridiculous and should be ignored. You already have solid Florida ties. Any T14 will give you the opportunity to go back if you do well.

[Gtown]

I know that I definitely want to live in South FL in the long-run bc literally all of my family is in Miami and I have no family anywhere else in the country. That said, if I had to take a job in a different city and live there for a little while before returning to Miami, I would do that too if it was the only option for having a job upon graduating.

The thing is, realistically, I think I could only get into schools a little bit lower on the T-14 list. So at that point, is it still preferable to go to like a UVA, Gtown, Duke, or UMich over a top FL that would be close to free? And if so, should I apply ED to one of those schools to increase my chances of getting in since I have lower than median numbers?

[BruceWayne]

BruceWayne is on fucking crack. CCN gets you almost anything, and South FL is no exception.

Plus, long term it's a better investment. You may be offered better opportunities in a different market and change your mind. You never know. If you can get a decent FL school with a full scholly, I can't say that's a bad deal. But t14s open up a world of opportunity that other schools will never ever give you.

This guy is an effing 0L moron who shouldn't be giving out employment advice. DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM. The bolded tells me he has NO IDEA what he is talking about. You need to learn to block out these people who blindly tell you that CCN top 5 etc. get you "whatever you want". ITE when I hear people saying that I instantly know that they are morons. Firms in secondary markets simply DO NOT care whether you go to CCN or whatever if you land below median. There are not enough jobs around for that. Plus you HAVE to understand that outside of the major markets firms HEAVILY prefer hiring from the local schools at the top of the class over below median at ANY top school not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. This isn't damn 2007.

I know that I definitely want to live in South FL in the long-run bc literally all of my family is in Miami and I have no family anywhere else in the country. That said, if I had to take a job in a different city and live there for a little while before returning to Miami, I would do that too if it was the only option for having a job upon graduating.

The thing is, realistically, I think I could only get into schools a little bit lower on the T-14 list. So at that point, is it still preferable to go to like a UVA, Gtown, Duke, or UMich over a top FL that would be close to free? And if so, should I apply ED to one of those schools to increase my chances of getting in since I have lower than median numbers?

NO IT IS NOT! Look I've been through the secondary market recruiting process and I know others that did as well. These secondary markets DO NOT prefer below median at top 14 to top of the class at the local school. And they have enough local schools and local students at the top of the class interested in them that they don't have to hire below median at top 14. They DO prefer above median (and by above median I mean like top 20 percent) at a top 14 with ties over regionals, but taking the risk that you will land that high at a top 14 while you are paying sticker is NOT a good idea. It's better to just go to the regional for FREE. That way if you miss the good grades you are not stuck with crushing debt.

Now all of what I said is assuming that you are truly only interested in working in South Florida. Honestly, if you would rather (and by rather I mean you are OK with the idea that you will almost CERTAINLY end up working in NYC) work a firm job outside of South Florida rather than miss out on a firm period, then go to top 14 sticker. But be aware that South Florida firms will likely be OUT unless you land above the median.

Your best bet is to probably forget about South Florida or to attend one of the Florida schools for free if you really want to work there. Who knows though, maybe you will get HYS, you never know. If you do then South Florida is a realistic goal.

[Verity]

BruceWayne is on fucking crack. CCN gets you almost anything, and South FL is no exception.

Plus, long term it's a better investment. You may be offered better opportunities in a different market and change your mind. You never know. If you can get a decent FL school with a full scholly, I can't say that's a bad deal. But t14s open up a world of opportunity that other schools will never ever give you.

This guy is an effing 0L moron who shouldn't be giving out employment advice. DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM. The bolded tells me he has NO IDEA what he is talking about. You need to learn to block out these people who blindly tell you that CCN top 5 etc. get you "whatever you want". ITE when I hear people saying that I instantly know that they are morons. People in secondary markets simply DO NOT care whether you go to CCN or whatever if you land below median. There are not enough jobs around for that. Plus you HAVE to understand that outside of the major markets firms HEAVILY prefer hiring from the local schools at the top of the class over below median at ANY top school not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. This isn't damn 2007.

I know that I definitely want to live in South FL in the long-run bc literally all of my family is in Miami and I have no family anywhere else in the country. That said, if I had to take a job in a different city and live there for a little while before returning to Miami, I would do that too if it was the only option for having a job upon graduating.

The thing is, realistically, I think I could only get into schools a little bit lower on the T-14 list. So at that point, is it still preferable to go to like a UVA, Gtown, Duke, or UMich over a top FL that would be close to free? And if so, should I apply ED to one of those schools to increase my chances of getting in since I have lower than median numbers?

NO IT IS NOT! Look I've been through the secondary market recruiting process and I know others that did as well. These secondary markets DO NOT prefer below median at top 14 top of the class at the local school. And they have enough local schools and local students at the top of the class intersted in them that they don't have to hire below median at top 14. They DO prefer above median at a top 14 with ties over regionals, but taking the risk that you will land that high at a top 14 while you are paying sticker is NOT a good idea. It's better to just go to the regional for FREE. That way if you miss the good grades you are not stuck with crushing debt.

Now all of what I said is assuming that you are truly only interested in working in South Florida. Honestly, if you would rather (and by rather I mean you are OK with the idea that you will almost CERTAINLY end up working in NYC) work a firm job outside of South Florida rather than miss out on a firm period, then go to top 14 sticker. But be aware that South Florida firms will likely be OUT unless you land above the median.

First, I'm not an 0L. Second, you're an idiot. Take a look at how these schools are placing in SoFL, or anywhere else for that matter, and compare it with how CCN is placing. OP shouldn't be dead set on SoFL. His degree will be an investment in his career, and I don't know why you're assuming he will be below median at CCN. Nobody is an idiot for taking CCN at sticker. It's a reasonable choice, and in this market I think it's the better choice.

OP, don't count on being top of the class at UF or UM, either. I go to a T25, and I know people with 173+ LSATs who didn't even make top 1/3. It may be harder at CCN, but with your stats you should just assume median, and see what you can get there. By the way, with a scholly from UF or UM, I'm not saying it's a bad move, but I think the better long term decision is CCN by far.

[BruceWayne]

First, I'm not an 0L. Second, you're an idiot. Take a look at how these schools are placing in SoFL, or anywhere else for that matter, and compare it with how CCN is placing. OP shouldn't be dead set on SoFL. His degree will be an investment in his career, and I don't know why you're assuming he will be below median at CCN. Nobody is an idiot for taking CCN at sticker. It's a reasonable choice, and in this market I think it's the better choice.

OP, don't count on being top of the class at UF or UM. I go to a T25, and I know people with 173+ LSATs who didn't even make top 1/3. It may be harder at CCN, but with your stats you should just assume median, and see what you can get there. By the way, with a scholly from UF or UM, I'm not saying it's a bad move, but I think the better long term decision is CCN by far.

You're a moron. And now you're strawmanning to avoid looking like a fool. NO SHIT those schools don't place as well as CCN overall Who the hell is arguing that? Are you stupid? He asked about how CCN place into SOUTH FLORIDA. To have a good chance at SOUTH FLORIDA from CCN he will need to be top 20 percent. That's what you're missing. No one is saying that CCN is a bad choice for a biglaw job at sticker if you are fine with working somewhere other than South Florida. In fact, I wrote an entire disclaimer section on that saying that if he wants a biglaw job period then CCN is the better choice. I'm not sure why you think that answering a question that he didn't ask that any moron knows the correct answer to was helpful.

And your diatribe about "don't count on being top of the class" at a top 25 is hilarious. If you think that then how the hell do you think he should count on being top 20 percent at CCN? Because that's what he'll need to have a good shot at South Florida firms from there. Now if he's truly fine with missing out on South Florida and working anywhere at a firm then that's a different story as far as needing to be top 20 percent at CCN. But again I specified that. What we are talking about is WORKING IN SOUTH FLORIDA.

[Jay Obee]

You're a moron. And now you're strawmanning to avoid looking like a fool. NO SHIT those schools don't place as well as CCN overall Who the hell is arguing that? Are you stupid? He asked about how CCN place into SOUTH FLORIDA. To have a good chance at SOUTH FLORIDA from CCN he will need to be top 20 percent. That's what you're missing.... [/b]

Miami is insular and not a good market generally for big national law firms, but you are simply overstating your case. If you aren't from South Florida, you have a slim chance at getting Miami even if you are middle of the class at Harvard. If you were born and raised in Miami, firms aren't going to care whether you were Harvard or Columbia. Nobody in the US legal market, I don't care what city you are in or how insular it is, is going to think that a middle of the class Harvard student is so much better than a Columbia student that they won't even consider the Columbia student but would take the Harvard one.

ETA: Just to have something helpful to the OP, I think schools aren't consistent in how they treat Cubans for diversity boost purposes. You should apply to every T14 to make sure your bets are hedged. You will probably be in at several, and at least one with a decent scholarship.

[Verity]

First, I'm not an 0L. Second, you're an idiot. Take a look at how these schools are placing in SoFL, or anywhere else for that matter, and compare it with how CCN is placing. OP shouldn't be dead set on SoFL. His degree will be an investment in his career, and I don't know why you're assuming he will be below median at CCN. Nobody is an idiot for taking CCN at sticker. It's a reasonable choice, and in this market I think it's the better choice.

OP, don't count on being top of the class at UF or UM. I go to a T25, and I know people with 173+ LSATs who didn't even make top 1/3. It may be harder at CCN, but with your stats you should just assume median, and see what you can get there. By the way, with a scholly from UF or UM, I'm not saying it's a bad move, but I think the better long term decision is CCN by far.

You're a moron. And now you're strawmanning to avoid looking like a fool. NO SHIT those schools don't place as well as CCN overall Who the hell is arguing that? Are you stupid? He asked about how CCN place into SOUTH FLORIDA. To have a good chance at SOUTH FLORIDA from CCN he will need to be top 20 percent. That's what you're missing. No one is saying that CCN is a bad choice for a biglaw job at sticker if you are fine with working somewhere other than South Florida. In fact, I wrote an entire disclaimer section on that saying that if he wants a biglaw job period then CCN is the better choice. I'm not sure why you think that answering a question that he didn't ask that any moron knows the correct answer to was helpful.

And your diatribe about "don't count on being top of the class" at a top 25 is hilarious. If you think that then how the hell do you think he should count on being top 20 percent at CCN? Because that's what he'll need to have a good shot at South Florida firms from there. Now if he's truly fine with missing out on South Florida and working anywhere at a firm then that's a different story as far as needing to be top 20 percent at CCN. But again I specified that. What we are talking about is WORKING IN SOUTH FLORIDA.

Where the hell are you getting this top 20% at CCN for SoFL bullshit from? Are you even from FL?

Again, OP shouldn't just be thinking about SoFL. In this economy he needs to be open to other markets, and should also be thinking more long term. The opportunities are incomparable. You're EXAGGERATING on a mega-level.

Besides, I never said UF or UM are bad ideas, but CCN is always a good decision, even at sticker.

[BruceWayne]

Where the hell are you getting this top 20% at CCN for SoFL bullshit from? Are you even from FL?

Again, OP shouldn't just be thinking about SoFL. In this economy he needs to be open to other markets, and should also be thinking more long term. The opportunities are incomparable. You're EXAGGERATING on a mega-level.

LOL I'm glad we clarified things--it's now official--you have ABSOLUTELY NO experience with secondary market hiring (hell it's still up in the air whether you even know anything about OCI). I bet you think that top 20 percent is in exaggeration for the grades needed from CCN for a good shot at Atlanta too? LOL You REALLY have NO idea what you're talking about. Put down the US News and stop giving advice about employment for secondary markets.


OP as I told you before all the people I know who targeted South Florida from UVA (who were ALL FROM MIAMI) were shut out of South Florida firms except one. This person had substantial full time finance/accounting work experience before law school AND is bilingual.

And really, now that I think about it, Verity lost even more credibility when he said CCN at sticker is ALWAYS a good idea--it's definitely not. For example if he has to choose between NYU sticker and Duke with even 40K Duke is the better idea for someone interested in South Florida--especially a minority who could attend SEMJF and interview with Florida firms face to face where he would have no opportunity to do so at NYU. But again you really don't know anything about secondary market hiring so I'm not surprised that you're giving out such bad information.

Another thing you should heavily consider OP is going to Vanderbilt for free. You probably have a legit chance at a big scholarship at Vandy as a minority with those numbers. That would be IDEAL. Vandy is going to give you the opportunity to interview with many Florida firms (whereas CCN won't) at Vandy OCI and at the SEMJF job fair. Plus the grades that Florida firms will expect from Vanderbilt aren't going to be all that different than what they'd expect from CCN but you would not have sticker debt.

[Gtown]

OP as I told you before all the people I know who targeted South Florida from UVA (who were ALL FROM MIAMI were shut out of South Florida firms except one.

When you say shut out of SFL firms, do you mean Big Law only? Or are you saying they couldnt get a job with any firm? Bc I would be perfectly fine with not being in Big Law and being at a small to mid size firm.

Also, assuming I dont go to SFL right after law school. How easy is it to switch jobs from wherever I may be to go back to SFL?

[BruceWayne]

Miami is insular and not a good market generally for big national law firms, but you are simply overstating your case. If you aren't from South Florida, you have a slim chance at getting Miami even if you are middle of the class at Harvard. If you were born and raised in Miami, firms aren't going to care whether you were Harvard or Columbia. Nobody in the US legal market, I don't care what city you are in or how insular it is, is going to think that a middle of the class Harvard student is so much better than a Columbia student that they won't even consider the Columbia student but would take the Harvard one.

ETA: Just to have something helpful to the OP, I think schools aren't consistent in how they treat Cubans for diversity boost purposes. You should apply to every T14 to make sure your bets are hedged. You will probably be in at several, and at least one with a decent scholarship.

It's incredible how much people base employment advice on US News. Your comment about Columbia vs. Harvard really highlights how much 1. You're using US News to give out advice and 2. How much you misunderstand how schools are viewed outside of New York. For example I bet you would tell the OP that while he would have a shot from middle of the pack at Columbia he would have less of one from middle of the pack at Duke--which is just flat out wrong.

Yes, there are MANY non NYC firms that will take a Harvard grad with ties from middle of the class (hell ANYWHERE in the class) over a middle of the pack Columbia student. Look, I hate to break this to you but in secondary markets (except for maybe Texas from what I've heard) it's HYS then whatever top 14 is in that secondary market's region and then the rest of the top 14. Firms from places like South Florida don't really differentiate within the top 14 other than HYS. They just don't.

The other wrong thing about your middle of the pack Harvard comment vs. the Columbia one is that HYS don't use traditional grades. That helps IMMENSELY in a secondary market like South Florida. They are going to have strict cutoffs based on either rank or numerical GPA that they will try to apply even to top schools like Columbia. I'm not saying it's going to be the exact same as it would be at the local schools, but they still are going to want to make a cutoff. Harvard (and even moreso Yale/Stanford) are going to throw them off of this. But really the bottom line is that there are so few people who attend HYS from a secondary market and who also want to go back to that market, that the competition is just in those students favor. Mainly because ALL markets want a student from HYS if they can get one. Even a South Florida firm accustomed to nothing but UMiami grads wants to put up a Harvard JD on their firm page to the point where they will take whatever. Columbia, NYU, Chicago, etc.--not so much.

OP as I told you before all the people I know who targeted South Florida from UVA (who were ALL FROM MIAMI were shut out of South Florida firms except one.

When you say shut out of SFL firms, do you mean Big Law only? Or are you saying they couldnt get a job with any firm? Bc I would be perfectly fine with not being in Big Law and being at a small to mid size firm.

Also, assuming I dont go to SFL right after law school. How easy is it to switch jobs from wherever I may be to go back to SFL?

I don't want to get into too much detail for fear of outing people's business, but most are currently rising 3Ls so they either really haven't found anything yet or they are doing something in a different market all together (some ended up working non paying government internships). I know one that graduated last year and ended up finding something after graduation at a small shop in South Florida. But the thing about that latter option is that that person could have gotten that out of Florida/UMiami/Florida State. Once you miss the biglaw boat the big name school doesn't really help much. In fact, in some ways it might hurt you if you are at a school that's very far way from the market you're targeting because you won't be able to network and hustle with local attorneys. And the small firms won't be familiar with grads from your school. Cough cough see: if you go to CCN.