Theoretical Topic--Is It Possible to Get Into HLS for Me? Forum

[echamberlin8]

As I pointed out in the title, this is a theoretical topic ONLY. I do not have an LSAT score yet. So please do not tell me to, "Take the LSAT and then come back." Thank you.

Okay, here is my situation. I went to James Madison University in VA. It's not ranked on the USNWR overall university list, but I'd say it would be ranked somewhere around #80-100 if it was on there. They ranked it #6 on their Regional Universities list for the South. My undergrad GPA is a 3.73.

Now I understand that Yale and Stanford typically have 3.8 GPA floors for non-URMs. So I've basically ruled those out. I've heard that Harvard is a possibility for those with a 3.7 and above, if one has a ~175+ LSAT. I've also heard that Harvard looks kindly on those with work experience. By the time I enter law school in fall 2013, I will have had 4 years of work experience (hopefully about two of them at a V25 firm as a project assistant, which is where I work now).

I started studying about a month ago for the October LSAT. I'm simply asking the question about if I can get into Harvard Law, because I want something as motivation for studying my absolute ass off through the next six months. I got a 155 diagnostic (missing a ton in Logic Games...of course), so a 175 is probably going to be almost impossible, but I really want to try my absolute hardest. At this point, I know I can't get into Yale, and probably not Stanford, because of my undergraduate GPA (and also because of my lack of UG prestige). I'm just curious if you guys think with a high enough LSAT I could get into Harvard.

If not, CCN are still great schools. Also, what LSAT do you think would be necessary to have a shot at HLS? A 174? 176? Sometimes I wonder if my UG would almost help me get into HLS, because I hear schools like that like to have a very diverse group of UG schools represented. I looked at their current list of UG colleges represented, and JMU wasn't listed as one of them.

Anyways, again, THIS IS ALL THEORETICAL. I'm not asking if I'm going to get into a school when I haven't even taken the LSAT. I was just curious, and it's nice to have that as a goal while studying for the LSAT.

[SilverE2]

http://harvard.lawschoolnumbers.com/

[laxbrah420]

Why would James Madison be ranked 80-100? The list goes past those numbers.
Also, you should take the LSAT before you consider your chances. After that, come back.

Edit to add: I couldn't tell if this question is realist, an abstraction, or theoretical?

[splitbrain]

Brb, making an award for most neurotic post of the day.

[echamberlin8]

Why would James Madison be ranked 80-100? The list goes past those numbers.
Also, you should take the LSAT before you consider your chances. After that, come back.

Well, I wouldn't put it past #115 or so. I remember seeing some VA schools there were definitely worse than it at around #115 or so. I obviously didn't go to the best UG school, though.

And I knew you guys would say that! That's why I stamped "theoretical" all over this list. I have six months to wait to take the LSAT, and believe me, I'm studying my ass off, but I just want to be able to tell myself in my head that I can get into Harvard if I get a good enough score. And yes I'm aware, you guys can't read a magic 8-ball or anything to tell me yes or no.

I was just open to hearing opinions.

However, I understand your sentiments about worrying about the LSAT first and foremost. Duly noted.

[echamberlin8]

Brb, making an award for most neurotic post of the day.

Haha, yes, I won't deny my neuroticism.

[laxbrah420]

Why would James Madison be ranked 80-100? The list goes past those numbers.
Also, you should take the LSAT before you consider your chances. After that, come back.

Well, I wouldn't put it past #115 or so. I remember seeing some VA schools there were definitely worse than it at around #115 or so. I obviously didn't go to the best UG school, though.

And I knew you guys would say that! That's why I stamped "theoretical" all over this list. I have six months to wait to take the LSAT, and believe me, I'm studying my ass off, but I just want to be able to tell myself in my head that I can get into Harvard if I get a good enough score. And yes I'm aware, you guys can't read a magic 8-ball or anything to tell me yes or no.

I was just open to hearing opinions.

However, I understand your sentiments about worrying about the LSAT first and foremost. Duly noted.

I don't understand. The US News determined a way for ranking schools, calculated it, and then published it. Then, you looked at other schools ranked on it and determined that your school is better and should be published higher on that magazine's list?

[Doorkeeper]

1) It doesn't really matter what UG university you came from.
2) With a 3.73 GPA you will probably not get into Harvard unless you get a 176-180 on the LSAT unless you have really, really good softs (ie: Fulbright or a prestigious job. No working at a V25 doesn't count).
3) Acquire a 176, get an amazing job, or go to CCN.

[echamberlin8]

Why would James Madison be ranked 80-100? The list goes past those numbers.
Also, you should take the LSAT before you consider your chances. After that, come back.

Well, I wouldn't put it past #115 or so. I remember seeing some VA schools there were definitely worse than it at around #115 or so. I obviously didn't go to the best UG school, though.

And I knew you guys would say that! That's why I stamped "theoretical" all over this list. I have six months to wait to take the LSAT, and believe me, I'm studying my ass off, but I just want to be able to tell myself in my head that I can get into Harvard if I get a good enough score. And yes I'm aware, you guys can't read a magic 8-ball or anything to tell me yes or no.

I was just open to hearing opinions.

However, I understand your sentiments about worrying about the LSAT first and foremost. Duly noted.

I don't understand. The US News determined a way for ranking schools, calculated it, and then published it. Then, you looked at other schools ranked on it and determined that your school is better and should be published higher on that magazine's list?

Yes, you are correct. Unless you really think JMU shouldn't be anywhere in the top 250 or whatever. They put it in their Regional Schools ranking, but not the National Universities one. Not sure why that is.

Does that bother you? I'm just estimating where it would go. It doesn't really matter to this thread's discussion if it's ranked #80 or #160.

Edit: To get an approximate gauge of where it should be ranked, I saw some of the schools ranked either right before it or after it on the Southern Regional Schools ranking, and then saw where those were placed on the National Universities ranking. I would assume the criteria is probably somewhat similar for both lists.

[echamberlin8]

1) It doesn't really matter what UG university you came from.
2) With a 3.73 GPA you will probably not get into Harvard unless you get a 176-180 on the LSAT unless you have really, really good softs (ie: Fulbright or a prestigious job. No working at a V25 doesn't count).
3) Acquire a 176, get an amazing job, or go to CCN.

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I probably won't switch jobs before getting into law school, so it appears that a 176+ is about my only option. Oh well, thank you for the feedback! I appreciate your answer.

[laxbrah420]

I have no idea where I'd put it. US News, the source you used for qualifying your school, clearly thinks it doesn't belong there. Since they put it in their regional rankings, it seems to me they're aware of the school.

[echamberlin8]

I have no idea where I'd put it. US News, the source you used for qualifying your school, clearly thinks it doesn't belong there. Since they put it in their regional rankings, it seems to me they're aware of the school.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure why they'd consider certain VA schools traditionally easier to get into to be deserving of the National Universities list even though they are ranked lower than JMU on the Southern list. Oh well, I guess this doesn't matter much about my original question. I was just curious if Harvard would even let in someone from JMU if they had high enough numbers (I'm not saying I do). I know everyone says that where you went to UG generally doesn't matter as much as your numbers, but often they put in an addendum statement: "Unless it's HYS," implying that HYS do care about your UG school. Still, I have looked on their Web site to see the UG schools represented, and they do have schools that are at least comparable to JMU.

[aekea]

I have no idea where I'd put it. US News, the source you used for qualifying your school, clearly thinks it doesn't belong there. Since they put it in their regional rankings, it seems to me they're aware of the school.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure why they'd consider certain VA schools traditionally easier to get into to be deserving of the National Universities list even though they are ranked lower than JMU on the Southern list. Oh well, I guess this doesn't matter much about my original question. I was just curious if Harvard would even let in someone from JMU if they had high enough numbers (I'm not saying I do). I know everyone says that where you went to UG generally doesn't matter as much as your numbers, but often they put in an addendum statement: "Unless it's HYS," implying that HYS do care about your UG school. Still, I have looked on their Web site to see the UG schools represented, and they do have schools that are at least comparable to JMU.

What people mean is it doesn't matter where you went to UG unless you went to HYP which will give you a small boost. They don't mean that certain law schools will care more where you went to school. Going to a non-prestigious UG is pretty much never going to impact the way law schools evaluate you.

[echamberlin8]

I have no idea where I'd put it. US News, the source you used for qualifying your school, clearly thinks it doesn't belong there. Since they put it in their regional rankings, it seems to me they're aware of the school.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure why they'd consider certain VA schools traditionally easier to get into to be deserving of the National Universities list even though they are ranked lower than JMU on the Southern list. Oh well, I guess this doesn't matter much about my original question. I was just curious if Harvard would even let in someone from JMU if they had high enough numbers (I'm not saying I do). I know everyone says that where you went to UG generally doesn't matter as much as your numbers, but often they put in an addendum statement: "Unless it's HYS," implying that HYS do care about your UG school. Still, I have looked on their Web site to see the UG schools represented, and they do have schools that are at least comparable to JMU.

What people mean is it doesn't matter where you went to UG unless you went to HYP which will give you a small boost. They don't mean that certain law schools will care more where you went to school. Going to a non-prestigious UG is pretty much never going to impact the way law schools evaluate you.

Hmm...I have definitely heard some people say that HLS, YLS, and SLS care (albeit, slightly) about UG prestige. But I would agree with you for the most part, and I definitely hope you are 100% correct since it would benefit me.

By the way, I had originally posted this in the Law School Admissions Forum, because I thought I had to have an actual LSAT score to post in the "What are my chances?" forum, but it got moved here. So please, don't post a link to the "Should I Post in the What Are My Chances Forum?" thread.

[aekea]

I have no idea where I'd put it. US News, the source you used for qualifying your school, clearly thinks it doesn't belong there. Since they put it in their regional rankings, it seems to me they're aware of the school.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure why they'd consider certain VA schools traditionally easier to get into to be deserving of the National Universities list even though they are ranked lower than JMU on the Southern list. Oh well, I guess this doesn't matter much about my original question. I was just curious if Harvard would even let in someone from JMU if they had high enough numbers (I'm not saying I do). I know everyone says that where you went to UG generally doesn't matter as much as your numbers, but often they put in an addendum statement: "Unless it's HYS," implying that HYS do care about your UG school. Still, I have looked on their Web site to see the UG schools represented, and they do have schools that are at least comparable to JMU.

What people mean is it doesn't matter where you went to UG unless you went to HYP which will give you a small boost. They don't mean that certain law schools will care more where you went to school. Going to a non-prestigious UG is pretty much never going to impact the way law schools evaluate you.

Hmm...I have definitely heard some people say that HLS, YLS, and SLS care (albeit, slightly) about UG prestige. But I would agree with you for the most part, and I definitely hope you are 100% correct since it would benefit me.

By the way, I had originally posted this in the Law School Admissions Forum, because I thought I had to have an actual LSAT score to post in the "What are my chances?" forum, but it got moved here. So please, don't post a link to the "Should I Post in the What Are My Chances Forum?" thread.

Yes, they care slightly. They care if you went to HYP or another similarly ranked UG. Otherwise they do not care.

[echamberlin8]

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure why they'd consider certain VA schools traditionally easier to get into to be deserving of the National Universities list even though they are ranked lower than JMU on the Southern list. Oh well, I guess this doesn't matter much about my original question. I was just curious if Harvard would even let in someone from JMU if they had high enough numbers (I'm not saying I do). I know everyone says that where you went to UG generally doesn't matter as much as your numbers, but often they put in an addendum statement: "Unless it's HYS," implying that HYS do care about your UG school. Still, I have looked on their Web site to see the UG schools represented, and they do have schools that are at least comparable to JMU.

What people mean is it doesn't matter where you went to UG unless you went to HYP which will give you a small boost. They don't mean that certain law schools will care more where you went to school. Going to a non-prestigious UG is pretty much never going to impact the way law schools evaluate you.

Hmm...I have definitely heard some people say that HLS, YLS, and SLS care (albeit, slightly) about UG prestige. But I would agree with you for the most part, and I definitely hope you are 100% correct since it would benefit me.

By the way, I had originally posted this in the Law School Admissions Forum, because I thought I had to have an actual LSAT score to post in the "What are my chances?" forum, but it got moved here. So please, don't post a link to the "Should I Post in the What Are My Chances Forum?" thread.

Yes, they care slightly. They care if you went to HYP or another similarly ranked UG. Otherwise they do not care.

So you don't think there'd be any difference between a UVA grad (generally considered the best VA school) and me if we had the exact same numbers (for instance, 3.73 and 174)?

[Bildungsroman]

Just try to get as high an LSAT score as possible. "What LSAT should I aim for" threads are a waste of time.

[aekea]

Hmm...I have definitely heard some people say that HLS, YLS, and SLS care (albeit, slightly) about UG prestige. But I would agree with you for the most part, and I definitely hope you are 100% correct since it would benefit me.

Yes, they care slightly. They care if you went to HYP or another similarly ranked UG. Otherwise they do not care.

So you don't think there'd be any difference between a UVA grad (generally considered the best VA school) and me if we had the exact same numbers (for instance, 3.73 and 174)?

No, I don't think there would be a difference. If your numbers are identical to someone else and you're both borderline candidates, they're going to evaluate you on your resume, personal statement, letters of rec, and so on. Don't stress out about this. It's not something you can change at this stage in your life anyway.

[echamberlin8]

Just try to get as high an LSAT score as possible. "What LSAT should I aim for" threads are a waste of time.

Yeah, I know, that wasn't really the point of this thread. It was to determine if Harvard was even possible in my circumstances. I know I need to get as high as I absolutely can to even have a shot, but I've ruled out Yale and Stanford basically, and was curious if Harvard was more open to people with 3.7's and work experience.

[echamberlin8]

Hmm...I have definitely heard some people say that HLS, YLS, and SLS care (albeit, slightly) about UG prestige. But I would agree with you for the most part, and I definitely hope you are 100% correct since it would benefit me.

Yes, they care slightly. They care if you went to HYP or another similarly ranked UG. Otherwise they do not care.

So you don't think there'd be any difference between a UVA grad (generally considered the best VA school) and me if we had the exact same numbers (for instance, 3.73 and 174)?

No, I don't think there would be a difference. If your numbers are identical to someone else and you're both borderline candidates, they're going to evaluate you on your resume, personal statement, letters of rec, and so on. Don't stress out about this. It's not something you can change at this stage in your life anyway.

You're right. Thank you for the response.

[rad lulz]

.

[bernaldiaz]

Why would James Madison be ranked 80-100? The list goes past those numbers.
Also, you should take the LSAT before you consider your chances. After that, come back.

Edit to add: I couldn't tell if this question is realist, an abstraction, or theoretical?

For what it's worth, its not the regional schools don't make the cut for the national university list because they just aren't good enough as schools. For example, Villanova is only a regional school. I think it would surely be in the top 50-60 for undergrad. What makes the regional schools regional is that they have very limited graduate programs, offer few PHDs, and don't produce much research. Hope this helps a little.

[soj]

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/

You need 172 (173-4 to be safe) for NYU. 170 for UVA, where being in-state will help a lot. Shoot for 180.

[echamberlin8]

Why would James Madison be ranked 80-100? The list goes past those numbers.
Also, you should take the LSAT before you consider your chances. After that, come back.

Edit to add: I couldn't tell if this question is realist, an abstraction, or theoretical?

For what it's worth, its not the regional schools don't make the cut for the national university list because they just aren't good enough as schools. For example, Villanova is only a regional school. I think it would surely be in the top 50-60 for undergrad. What makes the regional schools regional is that they have very limited graduate programs, offer few PHDS, and don't produce much research. Hope this helps a little.

Actually, that does answer a question I was curious about. Thank you! Come to think of it, JMU doesn't offer too many graduate programs, although I think they have a decent business school (this might just be for UG business....).

[bernaldiaz]

Actually, that does answer a question I was curious about. Thank you! Come to think of it, JMU doesn't offer too many graduate programs, although I think they have a decent business school (this might just be for UG business....).

Yeah my sister went to Villanova so I was always curious why it didn't make the list.