3.76/167 + 178 Forum

[bigdawg6]

Hey all,

Just got my October LSAT score and am trying to adjust my plans as I did much better than I anticipated. I am planning to apply this cycle and defer to work as a paralegal for a year. I will graduate from a top 10 undergraduate university in the spring. So far, my top choice for a law school is Harvard, but is this too much of a reach with a first LSAT score of 167? Does anyone know how schools will view this first score since I improved over ten points the second time around?

In addition, I am considering Georgetown, Michigan, and Duke. Any advice you all could provide on other schools I should apply to and what my chances are at the schools I listed would be greatly appreciated. I would also love to hear any perspective you could provide on how to approach the huge improvement in my LSAT score.

[CanadianWolf]

In your situation, why not apply to all T-14 law schools that interest you ?

P.S. You should be admitted to Georgetown, Michigan & Duke.

[DoubleChecks]

Hey all,

Just got my October LSAT score and am trying to adjust my plans as I did much better than I anticipated. I am planning to apply this cycle and defer to work as a paralegal for a year. I will graduate from a top 10 undergraduate university in the spring. So far, my top choice for a law school is Harvard, but is this too much of a reach with a first LSAT score of 167? Does anyone know how schools will view this first score since I improved over ten points the second time around?

In addition, I am considering Georgetown, Michigan, and Duke. Any advice you all could provide on other schools I should apply to and what my chances are at the schools I listed would be greatly appreciated. I would also love to hear any perspective you could provide on how to approach the huge improvement in my LSAT score.

tbh, your GPA probably hurts you more for HLS than your 167 LSAT. That being said, the 167 will hurt w/ HLS about as much as they want a reason to reject you, imo. In other words, if they want a reason to like you after reviewing the rest of your app, it wont matter. If they are just looking for a reason to ding you after reviewing the rest of your app, well there it is. Slight negative soft, but not crippling by any means. If you can get your GPA higher, your chances would be much better. Saw plenty of 3.75ish/176+ waitlisted at HLS last cycle.

Certainly even now you have a decent shot at HLS and should apply. I assume in at a CCN as well (not sure on the $$ though). Outside of the ~T6, no one will really care that you took your LSAT twice.

[bigdawg6]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I'm hoping my GPA doesn't hurt me too bad since it is coming from a top 10 school, but I don't know.

[Curious1]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I'm hoping my GPA doesn't hurt me too bad since it is coming from a top 10 school, but I don't know.

Hmm at humblebrag. General consensus is UGPA only matters (slightly) from HYS, but your numbers are good regardless--almost the same as mine. Should be about a coinflip. Good luck to us.

[pupshaw]

.

[CanadianWolf]

If undergraduate institution is considered when evaluating one's UGPA, then Cal-Tech, Johns Hopkins, Chicago & MIT in addition to Princeton would be given some consideration.

[bigdawg6]

That was not meant to be bragging at all. Thanks for the help guys and good luck to you all.

[Curious1]

If undergraduate institution is considered when evaluating one's UGPA, then Cal-Tech, Johns Hopkins, Chicago & MIT in addition to Princeton would be given some consideration.

If things worked the way they should, none of us would be going to top-law-schools.com isn't fair. That said, I can't see adcomms (from HYS, not TTT where actually only numbers matter) NOT looking at a CalTech kid and going: hmm...good for him, going to a school where you actually have to work. But JHU and Chicago...maybe not so much.

Maybe revise that to: UGPA looks slightly better if from HYPSMC. Slightly worse if from online college.

Let's not hijack this thread...I'm VERY interested in OP's fate. With any luck both of us (all 3 of us, including the post above yours) can go to ASW this Spring. Keep the hope alive!

[CanadianWolf]

Harvard UGPA would not be taken into account due to grade inflation that has been widely criticized over the past several years. JHU & Chicago would receive as much consideration as Princeton.

[Curious1]

Harvard UGPA would not be taken into account due to grade inflation that has been widely criticized over the past several years. JHU & Chicago would receive as much consideration as Princeton.

This is really, really, really, not true. You have no idea how much power lay prestige has. Also grade inflation isn't really a thing. This has been discussed extensively over thousands of posts so I won't do it here, but basic argument: HYPS kids are objectively smarter and therefore deserve good grades, driving up the GPA average.

JHU and Chicago do have deflated grades but they're not ranked high enough/have enough lay prestige to matter. I'm assuming you go to one of the 2? I think those are great schools but I can't see an adcomm being impressed enough to look over a sub-par GPA.

[soj]

Harvard UGPA would not be taken into account due to grade inflation that has been widely criticized over the past several years.

No. You seem to be confusing what is true and what ought to be true.

[CanadianWolf]

No, you seem to be misinformed.

[CanadianWolf]

Curious1: No, adcomms are very much in tune with grading policies at elite undergraduate universities. Chicago, JHU & Princeton are well respected.

[CanadianWolf]

Anna Ivey's book The Ivey guide To Law School Admissions devotes attention to this point, as do other books. Page 34 of Anna Ivey's book notes that: "All the Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford & Yeshiva, are notorious among law school admissions officers for their grade inflation....Schools that are known ...for their tough grading curves are Reed, Harvey Mudd, Swartmore, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and the military academies.(To give you some idea, not a single person in Chicago's class graduated with a 4.0 average.)"

[CanadianWolf]

Anna Ivey further addresses how Harvard, Stanford & Princeton are trying to fight grade inflation at their respective schools, but are losing the battles.

[CanadianWolf]

Additionally, the LSAC tracks grading practices for law school admissions purposes--the GPA College Mean (GCM). This is used to address grade inflation at undergraduate schools as well as to compare the individual applicant with other law school applicants from his/her undergraduate school.

[soj]

Curious1: No, adcomms are very much in tune with grading policies at elite undergraduate universities. Chicago, JHU & Princeton are well respected.

No one said adcoms aren't aware of grade inflation at some schools and grade deflation at others. Top law schools still accept HYS students in large numbers, though, with many of those students overperforming their inflated numbers. HYS UGs who have access to data from their UG Career Offices have attested to this. True, these students might have other soft factors that make them strong candidates, but I don't see Princeton students doing much better than HY students with the same numbers, for example.

Anna Ivey's book The Ivey guide To Law School Admissions devotes attention to this point, as do other books. Page 34 of Anna Ivey's book notes that: "All the Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford & Yeshiva, are notorious among law school admissions officers for their grade inflation....Schools that are known ...for their tough grading curves are Reed, Harvey Mudd, Swartmore, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and the military academies.(To give you some idea, not a single person in Chicago's class graduated with a 4.0 average.)"

Again, no one's saying adcoms are unaware.

[Curious1]

Anna Ivey's book The Ivey guide To Law School Admissions devotes attention to this point, as do other books. Page 34 of Anna Ivey's book notes that: "All the Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford & Yeshiva, are notorious among law school admissions officers for their grade inflation....Schools that are known ...for their tough grading curves are Reed, Harvey Mudd, Swartmore, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and the military academies.(To give you some idea, not a single person in Chicago's class graduated with a 4.0 average.)"

Clearly she's 100% right about every single adcomm in the country and not just trying to sell books/services.

[Curious1]

Additionally, the LSAC tracks grading practices for law school admissions purposes--the GPA College Mean (GCM). This is used to address grade inflation at undergraduate schools as well as to compare the individual applicant with other law school applicants from his/her undergraduate school.

Relying on the mean itself is not a good way to gauge the strength of a candidate. Keep in mind that a person with a mean GPA at HYPS will likely be far above the mean at lower-ranked schools.

[CanadianWolf]

You can live in your dream world all you want, but I'll go with Anna Ivey's experience, Joyce Putnam Curll's experience, Susan Estrich's guide & the LSAC over a couple of inexperienced OLs anyday.

[Curious1]

You can live in your dream world all you want, but I'll go with Anna Ivey's experience, Joyce Putnam Curll experience, Susan Estrich's guide & the LSAC over a couple of inexperienced OLs anyday.

So I'm guessing you go to JHU? Anyway it doesn't matter to us what's viewed as what. Everything is set in stone already and (my) apps are in. Just don't give shoddy advice to other 0Ls based on someone's book and your personal views as to what ought to be the case.

[soj]

You can live in your dream world all you want, but I'll go with Anna Ivey's experience, Joyce Putnam Curll's experience, Susan Estrich's guide & the LSAC over a couple of inexperienced OLs anyday.

LOL @ you thinking this is supposed to make Curious1 and my argument worse, even though it's based on the real experiences of many applicants rather than authors with ulterior motives.

[CanadianWolf]

Yes, since they have much more actual experience and their experience is not based on anonymous internet posting anecdotes. Joyce Putnam Curll was the longtime (16 years) Admissions Dean at NYU before serving 18 years as Harvard's Dean of Admissions. Anna Ivey was Dean of Admissions at Chicago Law.

[soj]

Yes, since they have much more actual experience and their experience is not based on anonymous internet posting anecdotes. Joyce Putnam Curll was the longtime (16 years) Admissions Dean at NYU before serving 18 years as Harvard's Dean of Admissions. Anna Ivey was Dean of Admissions at Chicago Law.

LOL @ you thinking this is supposed to make Curious1 and my argument worse, even though it's based on the real experiences of many applicants rather than authors with ulterior motives.