3.1 / 180 Forum

[locke42]

wasp-y male, no work experience, average state school, average major, no extra curriculars, hardly an upward trend (on top of the fact that I left high school early and failed not one but two years of college).

I've looked through LSN thoroughly and I've read that LSP is not very accurate with these numbers -- I'm kind of looking for first hand experience/advice at this point, specifically on where to apply (or even if to apply anywhere at all) and if I need to ED just to break the T14

I don't care about prestige, just a shot at a job in a decent market

please don't tell me to look through the mountain of posts on this subject, i've yet to find anyone that is a reasonable match to my situation, everyone seems to have some card up their sleeve -- there is nothing special about me

oh, and i don't really want to live in st. louis if at all possible

[Grizz]

ED UVA

[bk1]

Yes you should ED. While you might not need it, you aren't going to get any scholarship money at the T14 so you have nothing to lose by ED'ing. While you can never ED to two schools at the same time, you can ED to certain schools in succession if the previous one rejects you. In prior cycles the best way to do this was a triple dip of UVa > UMich > GULC (aka the waterman maneuver). This is because these are generally the most splitter friendly T14's. UVa offered a 15 day turnaround on their ED which you would do as early as possible. If rejected you would then do normal ED to UMich (which is due by Nov 15, iirc). And finally if rejected from that you would ED to GULC since GULC has a late deadline (Jan/Feb, again iirc).

If you can still do this and you really want to pay sticker at a T14, then I would recommend it.

As for applying at all... if you want to be a lawyer apply to law school, if you don't then don't. It's pretty simple.

[Angrygeopolitically]

I would not ed so you can consider money from a top-20. WUSTL for example.


edit: oops didn't read your whole post. But would you live in St. Louis for $120,000.

[071816]

Retake.

[thelawyler]

Retake.

TCR.

[HeavenWood]

Yes you should ED. While you might not need it, you aren't going to get any scholarship money at the T14 so you have nothing to lose by ED'ing. While you can never ED to two schools at the same time, you can ED to certain schools in succession if the previous one rejects you. In prior cycles the best way to do this was a triple dip of UVa > UMich > GULC (aka the waterman maneuver). This is because these are generally the most splitter friendly T14's. UVa offered a 15 day turnaround on their ED which you would do as early as possible. If rejected you would then do normal ED to UMich (which is due by Nov 15, iirc). And finally if rejected from that you would ED to GULC since GULC has a late deadline (Jan/Feb, again iirc).

If you can still do this and you really want to pay sticker at a T14, then I would recommend it.

As for applying at all... if you want to be a lawyer apply to law school, if you don't then don't. It's pretty simple.

He won't get money from any of the T14? Not questioning your assertions, that just really fucking sucks.

[bdubs]

I don't care about prestige, just a shot at a job in a decent market

If you let us know what you consider to be decent jobs and decent markets we can tell you where to ED. It's true that you're unlikely to get a scholarship at any T14.

[locke42]

I don't care about prestige, just a shot at a job in a decent market

If you let us know what you consider to be decent jobs and decent markets we can tell you where to ED. It's true that you're unlikely to get a scholarship at any T14.

a largish company in a largish city -- a coastal city preferably, i always hoped i'd end up in LA, but i'll go where i'm wanted

ED UVA

Yes you should ED. While you might not need it

That's the question then isn't it. I like the sound of Virginia fine, i would feel grateful to have gotten in, but there are schools that i like the sound of more. therefore must i ED? do i not have a chance anywhere in the T14 any other way?

[kennethellenparcell]

Wow, you are pretty much a numbers twin with minimao. Search for her posts, and you may find the info you're looking for.

[bdubs]

a largish company in a largish city -- a coastal city preferably, i always hoped i'd end up in LA, but i'll go where i'm wanted

ED UVA

Yes you should ED. While you might not need it

That's the question then isn't it. I like the sound of Virginia fine, i would feel grateful to have gotten in, but there are schools that i like the sound of more. therefore must i ED? do i not have a chance anywhere in the T14 any other way?

Are you from southern CA? If so, you will have some possibility of work in LA. If not, you should probably reconsider your choice of cities because you won't get into any T20 schools in CA with a 3.1

You absolutely have to ED to have any shot at UVA. It's really the best school you realistically have any shot at getting into. The other option is probably only GULC, with some pretty small chance at Michigan.

[nelaw2010]

Retake.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too funny.

[CanadianWolf]

If you failed two years of college, then your other two years must be very close to 4.0 GPA years. Which two years of college did you fail ? (For example, a 2.2, another 2.2 & two 4.0 years averages to a 3.1 GPA.)

Without more information about why you did not do well in college, it's hard to offer suggestions other than that you need to be prepared to apply to as many as two dozen law schools if seeking meaningful scholarship money. I suspect that your personal statement & your recommendations will be read with great interest.

P.S. If your first two years of college were the bad GPA years, followed by two 4.0 GPA years, then you should be admitted to a few top 14 law schools if your recommendations & personal statement are strong.

[Kring345]

Can I borrow 2 or 3 of your LSAT points? You really do have a few to spare...

[subtle]

Can I borrow 2 or 3 of your LSAT points? You really do have a few to spare...

+1

[bk1]

He won't get money from any of the T14? Not questioning your assertions, that just really fucking sucks.

It's possible but very unlikely. For that kind of GPA it is generally something like $15k at best (which is piddly compared to sticker). That being said, generally GPA's like that have a higher chance of striking out of the T14 than they have of getting a small scholarship to one of them so it makes more sense to ED rather than try for a small amount of money.

[bk1]

That's the question then isn't it. I like the sound of Virginia fine, i would feel grateful to have gotten in, but there are schools that i like the sound of more. therefore must i ED? do i not have a chance anywhere in the T14 any other way?

You can get into the T14 without ED'ing. However there is the real possibility that you might strike out so I would personally hedge my bets if I were you but there are some arguments for personal school preference.

If you like other schools over UVA, which ones do you prefer? Lower T14's are basically fungible for most biglaw jobs (those being primarily in NYC).

[murray18]

If you don't care about prestige/are debt adverse, I'd apply to some regional schools. Alabama, Emory, etc... You won't be going to NYC for biglaw, but you'll have some good opportunities and probably very little debt. THINK ABOUT IT.

[Kabuo]

oh, and i don't really want to live in st. louis if at all possible

If anyone didn't think he did any research, this should have cleared it up. I lol'd. OP, UVA ED seems like your best bet. Penn or Mich might work, but they won't get back to you as quickly, and if you wait til one of them gets back to you to ED to UVA, you face a real possibility of rejection there.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/kabuo

Not as good of an LSAT as you, but I was also about as vanilla an app as possible. I think waiting til Christmas to ED to UVA really hurt. Fortunately, I don't mind STL.

[senorhosh]

If you want to go to T14..

NOT ED-ing will be very risky. You MIGHT get an acceptance from one or two places, maybe not.
Splitter cycles are too unpredictable but looking at the very, very few number of ED applicants on LSN, I'd say:
EDing at CC will be a 50/50 IMO (more or less), maybe a 70/30 at NYU. ED-ing UVA will be almost a lock, ED-ing Penn seems to give a good shot, and I'm not sure about Michigan (I haven't checked).

Of course since the sample is too small to be representative, your cycle might not turn out as expected.

Weigh out your odds. **edit** I checked LSN again and I'd say ED UVA if you want to play it safe. If not, pick a school, ED, and hope you get in. If not, you'll have about 9 other schools that may still accept you without ED.

[BlueDiamond]

I disagree with most of the people who have posted so far.. though ED'ing is your best realistic shot at a T14 youd be paying close to 200k.. If it were me I'd much rather take a massive scholarship at a regional school that has decent placement.. BU/BC Fordham Davis/Hastings.. of course the question is whether these schools would give a massive scholly.. those numbers are hard to make predictions with though

[bk1]

I disagree with most of the people who have posted so far.. though ED'ing is your best realistic shot at a T14 youd be paying close to 200k.. If it were me I'd much rather take a massive scholarship at a regional school that has decent placement.. BU/BC Fordham Davis/Hastings.. of course the question is whether these schools would give a massive scholly.. those numbers are hard to make predictions with though

Actually numbers don't make prediction that hard. Generally the non-splitter friendly top regionals aren't going to give much to a splitter if they accept him at all. This means that most regions of the country aren't going to give OP money (UCD/UCH/BU/BC/GW/Fordham/etc, not to mention that clearly UT/USC/UCLA are not really options).

Off the top of my head, the best schools that would OP would get money at are Vandy/Illinois/WUSTL/Emory. Of these I would hazard a guess that OP would likely only be interested in Vandy (again just a guess) and the problem there is that getting money from them is no guarantee.

[Grizz]

I disagree with most of the people who have posted so far.. though ED'ing is your best realistic shot at a T14 youd be paying close to 200k.. If it were me I'd much rather take a massive scholarship at a regional school that has decent placement.. BU/BC Fordham Davis/Hastings.. of course the question is whether these schools would give a massive scholly.. those numbers are hard to make predictions with though

Actually numbers don't make prediction that hard. Generally the non-splitter friendly top regionals aren't going to give much to a splitter if they accept him at all. This means that most regions of the country aren't going to give OP money (UCD/UCH/BU/BC/GW/Fordham/etc, not to mention that clearly UT/USC/UCLA are not really options).

Off the top of my head, the best schools that would OP would get money at are Vandy/Illinois/WUSTL/Emory. Of these I would hazard a guess that OP would likely only be interested in Vandy (again just a guess) and the problem there is that getting money from them is no guarantee.

I'm not even sure you can get into Vandy nowadays with a 3.1

[bk1]

I'm not even sure you can get into Vandy nowadays with a 3.1

If my memory serves me correct, Vandy actually let some of them in for the first time (that I know of) last cycle. For the past few LSN cycles prior to that they were unfriendly to splitters but I think the lower amount of apps might have caught them off guard. They may figure it out this cycle and go back to being unfriendly to splitters so this cycle is anyone's guess.

[senorhosh]

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/booboohead
exact same numbers as you.
This guy has WE and a masters though. Not sure how that factored in his cycle. But you can get the gist of it.

My prediction is WL everywhere except where you ED, unless you ED to a GPA school like Duke, which you will probably get a WL.