174/no gpa Forum

[mjitbswyd]

I graduated from a prestigious foreign college, but with a "B+ average" or "above average" grades according to LSAC.

Then I graduated from a MVP llm program and got 5 As and 1 A+ on all 6 graded courses. I also have 3 recommendations from my US law school professors who know me very well (senior writing advisors on 3 diffrent topics). My other softs are also strong.

I took 1 lsat and got 174.

thank you!

[bdubs]

why are you getting a JD when you already did well in a respected LLM program?

[mjitbswyd]

why are you getting a JD when you already did well in a respected LLM program?

Want to do a JD/PHD joint and go to academic.

[bdubs]

What kind of PhD? I think you should be more concerned about where you can get into a JD/PhD program, rather than just the JD component.

[piccolittle]

I would say you have a very good chance at all schools except HYS. The top three haven't seemed to take many foreign students in the past unless they have a transcript rated 'Superior' by LSAC. However, that's not to say you'd be wasting an application - your LLM success may distinguish you in a sea of US undergraduates, and your LSAT puts you near the 75% for all of them.

[mjitbswyd]

What kind of PhD? I think you should be more concerned about where you can get into a JD/PhD program, rather than just the JD component.

That's fine. I will apply for phd in diffrent schools if the ls does not offer joint degree.

[mjitbswyd]

I would say you have a very good chance at all schools except HYS. The top three haven't seemed to take many foreign students in the past unless they have a transcript rated 'Superior' by LSAC. However, that's not to say you'd be wasting an application - your LLM success may distinguish you in a sea of US undergraduates, and your LSAT puts you near the 75% for all of them.

Thank you! I might be wrong, but doesn't law school use the undergrad GPA as a way to predict law school success? If I have straight A law school grades, why do they care about my undergrad anyway (esp. when they are not US grades)?

[bdubs]

Why didn't you apply to the JSD program at your llm school?

[mjitbswyd]

Why didn't you apply to the JSD program at your llm school?

JSD program is too focused. I want to get a good idea of US law as a whole.

[Montevillian]

Thank you! I might be wrong, but doesn't law school use the undergrad GPA as a way to predict law school success? If I have straight A law school grades, why do they care about my undergrad anyway (esp. when they are not US grades)?

Without going too much into it, law schools care a great deal about their ranking- the higher their rank, the better quality of students they attract, the more they can charge, the more they make. Undergraduate GPA of students is a critical component of law school ranking, but the GPA you get from a graduate program isn't even considered. Without a GPA, you can't help their GPA standards, which obviously is a negative when you're applying to the law schools that don't desperately need that high LSAT.

Without going into it too much.

[mjitbswyd]

Thank you! I might be wrong, but doesn't law school use the undergrad GPA as a way to predict law school success? If I have straight A law school grades, why do they care about my undergrad anyway (esp. when they are not US grades)?

Without going too much into it, law schools care a great deal about their ranking- the higher their rank, the better quality of students they attract, the more they can charge, the more they make. Undergraduate GPA of students is a critical component of law school ranking, but the GPA you get from a graduate program isn't even considered. Without a GPA, you can't help their GPA standards, which obviously is a negative when you're applying to the law schools that don't desperately need that high LSAT.

Without going into it too much.

But all international applicant's GPA is not reported, and they still admit international..

[firemed]

Often hard to say with foreign students, but I would guess you have a good shot at all of the T14. Maybe even HYS honestly.

[Montevillian]

Without going too much into it, law schools care a great deal about their ranking- the higher their rank, the better quality of students they attract, the more they can charge, the more they make. Undergraduate GPA of students is a critical component of law school ranking, but the GPA you get from a graduate program isn't even considered. Without a GPA, you can't help their GPA standards, which obviously is a negative when you're applying to the law schools that don't desperately need that high LSAT.

Without going into it too much.

But all international applicant's GPA is not reported, and they still admit international..

I'm not saying it hurts THAT much, I'm just saying it's a negative to not have a numerical GPA. They admit international students that show enough promise to overcome that negative. The high LSAT definitely helps, but your GPA translates rather poorly. By all means, still apply to HYS, one might bite for that LSAT and your resume.

[kazu]

Without going too much into it, law schools care a great deal about their ranking- the higher their rank, the better quality of students they attract, the more they can charge, the more they make. Undergraduate GPA of students is a critical component of law school ranking, but the GPA you get from a graduate program isn't even considered. Without a GPA, you can't help their GPA standards, which obviously is a negative when you're applying to the law schools that don't desperately need that high LSAT.

Without going into it too much.

But all international applicant's GPA is not reported, and they still admit international..

I'm not saying it hurts THAT much, I'm just saying it's a negative to not have a numerical GPA. They admit international students that show enough promise to overcome that negative. The high LSAT definitely helps, but your GPA translates rather poorly. By all means, still apply to HYS, one might bite for that LSAT and your resume.

Just to add, I know of an instance where a person w/ a 178~180 LSA and an "Above Average" didn't get any of the HYS, while people with the same range LSAT but a "Superior" did. I've actually never heard of HYS accepting anyone with less than a "Superior" - not to say that they aren't out there, but you'll probably have to work more at differentiating yourself from the pack.


edit for clarity.

[AreJay711]

Why don't you just get a PhD? I imagine that you have enough experience to teach yourself American law since your undergrad degree was in law and you have an LLM.

[mjitbswyd]

Why don't you just get a PhD? I imagine that you have enough experience to teach yourself American law since your undergrad degree was in law and you have an LLM.

Thanks but I think it's better I learn it from a good law school than by myself.

[mjitbswyd]

Without going too much into it, law schools care a great deal about their ranking- the higher their rank, the better quality of students they attract, the more they can charge, the more they make. Undergraduate GPA of students is a critical component of law school ranking, but the GPA you get from a graduate program isn't even considered. Without a GPA, you can't help their GPA standards, which obviously is a negative when you're applying to the law schools that don't desperately need that high LSAT.

Without going into it too much.

But all international applicant's GPA is not reported, and they still admit international..

I'm not saying it hurts THAT much, I'm just saying it's a negative to not have a numerical GPA. They admit international students that show enough promise to overcome that negative. The high LSAT definitely helps, but your GPA translates rather poorly. By all means, still apply to HYS, one might bite for that LSAT and your resume.

Just to add, I know of an instance where a person w/ a 178~180 LSA and an "Above Average" didn't get any of the HYS, while people with the same range LSAT but a "Superior" did. I've actually never heard of HYS accepting anyone with less than a "Superior" - not to say that they aren't out there, but you'll probably have to work more at differentiating yourself from the pack.


edit for clarity.

Thank you. I agree that bad undergrad GPA is hard to overcome. But again, I thought that was what they use to predict law school performance, so if i can show I can do well in ls it would not be a big problem..

[kazu]

Thank you. I agree that bad undergrad GPA is hard to overcome. But again, I thought that was what they use to predict law school performance, so if i can show I can do well in ls it would not be a big problem..

Hopefully it will. I'm just trying to provide some perspective, since those people had LSAT scores 4+ points higher than yours and still weren't able to overcome the "Above Average" barrier. However, I'm honestly not sure how law schools will factor in the LLM performance. It's generally accepted on TLS that grad schools only count as a very minor soft, but perhaps it's different for an LLM. It would be great if you could keep us updated on your cycle so that future applicants will have more information.

[mjitbswyd]

Thank you. I agree that bad undergrad GPA is hard to overcome. But again, I thought that was what they use to predict law school performance, so if i can show I can do well in ls it would not be a big problem..

Hopefully it will. I'm just trying to provide some perspective, since those people had LSAT scores 4+ points higher than yours and still weren't able to overcome the "Above Average" barrier. However, I'm honestly not sure how law schools will factor in the LLM performance. It's generally accepted on TLS that grad schools only count as a very minor soft, but perhaps it's different for an LLM. It would be great if you could keep us updated on your cycle so that future applicants will have more information.

Thanks! Also could you please tell me how many people that you know fall into the "high lsat but rejected by HYS because of Above Average" catagory? How many international students (with Superior) in HYS do you know?

[kazu]

Thanks! Also could you please tell me how many people that you know fall into the "high lsat but rejected by HYS because of Above Average" catagory? How many international students (with Superior) in HYS do you know?

Haha, mainly based off of TLS it would be a couple in both categories. I'm the first to admit it's a small potentially non-representive sample size.

[mjitbswyd]

Thanks! Also could you please tell me how many people that you know fall into the "high lsat but rejected by HYS because of Above Average" catagory? How many international students (with Superior) in HYS do you know?

Haha, mainly based off of TLS it would be a couple in both categories. I'm the first to admit it's a small potentially non-representive sample size.

Got it. Thanks!