Great soft factors, ok numbers. T14? Forum

[anonymous TLSer]

So here is my abbreviated life story:

I graduated college with an English degree about 9 years ago and took a commission in the US Army. I served as an officer for four years following graduation and served 2 tours in Iraq. Ironically, my experience in Iraq turned me into somewhat of a pacifist, and after getting out of the Arm,y I did 2 years with the Peace Corps. After the peace corps, I had no idea what I wanted to do, and after a year or so of searching I was I selected for Teach for America. I have never had any intention of going to law school, until recently a friend told me I had the perfect resume for a top school. So... being fed up with working a shit job for the past year I took the LSAT and made a 165. My gpa from undergrad was a 3.6.

I know these numbers arent super great. But with my softs, what are my chances in the T14? What about HYS?

[ivantheterbl]

Unfortunately soft factors count for SO little in the admissions process-- If you are not a URM I would recommend retaking

[yngblkgifted]

I think a 170 would work wonders for you!

[Moral_Midgetry]

So here is my abbreviated life story:

I graduated college with an English degree about 9 years ago and took a commission in the US Army. I served as an officer for four years following graduation and served 2 tours in Iraq. Ironically, my experience in Iraq turned me into somewhat of a pacifist, and after getting out of the Arm,y I did 2 years with the Peace Corps. After the peace corps, I had no idea what I wanted to do, and after a year or so of searching I was I selected for Teach for America. I have never had any intention of going to law school, until recently a friend told me I had the perfect resume for a top school. So... being fed up with working a shit job for the past year I took the LSAT and made a 165. My gpa from undergrad was a 3.6.

I know these numbers arent super great. But with my softs, what are my chances in the T14? What about HYS?

Unless you are a URM you have zero chance at HYS without raising your LSAT 5+ points. Even if you are a URM your chances aren't good at HYS. With an early app or ED you may have a small shot at the lower t14. However, TCR is retake, score 170, enjoy t-14 with $$.

[buckilaw]

Actually, army vet (any combat xp?), peace corps, and TFA are all great softs. If you craft an excellent application, I think you could reasonably expect to outperform your numbers - note, any school in the T14 is still a longshot for you. I would look at Boalt, Michigan, and Yale, since these three schools arguably are the most "holistic" among the T14. However, if you retake the LSAT you can increase your chances by a substantial margin. With a 169-170 I would be suprised if you do net get at least one T14. Even with a 167-168 you would stand a good chance.

[dpk711]

You will probably never get HYS even if you get a 180. Best thing to do is retake in this situation and get a 170+. You're looking at T30 territory right now. But you mentioned that you're fed up working for a shit job so why are you planning on becoming a lawyer?

[Renzo]

This is the first post I've ever read where the poster actually did in fact have great softs. It will allow you to bat a little above where your numbers say you should, but not a lot above. I think it's possible you crack the T14 as is, but HYS aren't happening.

[dpk711]

This is the first post I've ever read where the poster actually did in fact have great softs. It will allow you to bat a little above where your numbers say you should, but not a lot above. I think it's possible you crack the T14 as is, but HYS aren't happening.

The only T14 I can see maybe happening is Berkeley.

[crossingforHYS]

I got UVA with a higher gpa and close to the same lsat..... (and waitlisted/held at columbia)

and my softs are worse then yours........apply everywhere you never know

[beachbum]

Boalt is a sucker for great softs, which you clearly have. And it sounds like you'll be able to write a hell of a personal statement. I honestly can't give you an accurate prediction regarding your chances (nor can others on this thread), as this combination of softs is so rare. I wouldn't be surprised to see you gain acceptance to multiple T14s, just as I wouldn't be surprised to see you strike-out completely.

Of course, your LSAT is very low for the T14, and your GPA is mediocre. I'd assume that HYS are out because of your numbers, but the rest of the T14 might just be fair game. Definitely consider retaking the LSAT, though.

[09042014]

Eh these softs are good not great.

Maybe an adcom will be super impressed, but it'll be a crap shoot. You should retake. With a better LSAT OP will be in good position for many T14' and possible scholarship money.

However, the 800 lbs Gorilla is that the OP seems to be applying to law school just because he thinks he can get a good law school. First of all, he can't. But more importantly, that's a really dumb reason to apply to law school. OP will hate it, and it will ruin his life most likely. OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

[dpk711]

Eh these softs are good not great.

Maybe an adcom will be super impressed, but it'll be a crap shoot. You should retake. With a better LSAT OP will be in good position for many T14' and possible scholarship money.

However, the 800 lbs Gorilla is that the OP seems to be applying to law school just because he thinks he can get a good law school. First of all, he can't. But more importantly, that's a really dumb reason to apply to law school. OP will hate it, and it will ruin his life most likely. OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

Always listen to Desert Fox.

[Renzo]

Eh these softs are good not great.

Maybe an adcom will be super impressed, but it'll be a crap shoot. You should retake. With a better LSAT OP will be in good position for many T14' and possible scholarship money.

However, the 800 lbs Gorilla is that the OP seems to be applying to law school just because he thinks he can get a good law school. First of all, he can't. But more importantly, that's a really dumb reason to apply to law school. OP will hate it, and it will ruin his life most likely. OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

I disagree on almost every point. The OP (probably a "he") could tell a quite compelling narrative of his past experiences that's likely to make an adcomm or two take a chance on him, even if others are less impressed.

Also, of all the people that have both the resume and disposition to get a job from either deep in the class or from a lesser school, it's someone who's been an army officer and a peace corpsman. He's like an auto-hire for many government and foreign development NGO jobs, and those are the kinds of jobs that people actually like doing, so there's no reason to assume he'd be miserable. And if he's been an army officer, trust me he can grind through some inane bullshit busywork, so even biglaw won't be that bad.

[09042014]

Eh these softs are good not great.

Maybe an adcom will be super impressed, but it'll be a crap shoot. You should retake. With a better LSAT OP will be in good position for many T14' and possible scholarship money.

However, the 800 lbs Gorilla is that the OP seems to be applying to law school just because he thinks he can get a good law school. First of all, he can't. But more importantly, that's a really dumb reason to apply to law school. OP will hate it, and it will ruin his life most likely. OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

I disagree on almost every point. The OP (probably a "he") could tell a quite compelling narrative of his past experiences that's likely to make an adcomm or two take a chance on him, even if others are less impressed.

Also, of all the people that have both the resume and disposition to get a job from either deep in the class or from a lesser school, it's someone who's been an army officer and a peace corpsman. He's like an auto-hire for many government and foreign development NGO jobs, and those are the kinds of jobs that people actually like doing, so there's no reason to assume he'd be miserable. And if he's been an army officer, trust me he can grind through some inane bullshit busywork, so even biglaw won't be that bad.

250K in debt (though I guess a lot less because of GI Bill, though he might have been ROTC) on maybe he'll like grinding legal work cause he was in the army is a spectacularly retarded plan.

He isn't autohire at any legal gov't job. Though he gets a lot of preference in many regular gov't jobs, which he can apply for right now.

OP admits he has no idea what he wants to do, he simply shouldn't go to law school unless he wants it. Law school is a massive commitment. Someone who get's big law doesn't break even for at least 7 years. That's a huge chunk of life just because his buddy said "he has a good law school resume."

None of his softs are great on their own, and there really isn't any reason why they look spectacular when combined. He has legit good softs (which is rare), but I doubt he has "Below both median" admit softs. If his GPA was 3.9 or his LSAT was 169+ he'd get a lot of acceptances, but below both medians is a hard sell. And like I said, even if he does get Cornell at sticker, he's going to go deeply in debt just because he can?

[minnbills]

I'd say retake just for the hell of it, but you could probably snag a nice scholarship to a good T1 as is.

[Renzo]

250K in debt (though I guess a lot less because of GI Bill, though he might have been ROTC) on maybe he'll like grinding legal work cause he was in the army is a spectacularly retarded plan.

He isn't autohire at any legal gov't job. Though he gets a lot of preference in many regular gov't jobs, which he can apply for right now.

OP admits he has no idea what he wants to do, he simply shouldn't go to law school unless he wants it. Law school is a massive commitment. Someone who get's big law doesn't break even for at least 7 years. That's a huge chunk of life just because his buddy said "he has a good law school resume."

None of his softs are great on their own, and there really isn't any reason why they look spectacular when combined. He has legit good softs (which is rare), but I doubt he has "Below both median" admit softs. If his GPA was 3.9 or his LSAT was 169+ he'd get a lot of acceptances, but below both medians is a hard sell. And like I said, even if he does get Cornell at sticker, he's going to go deeply in debt just because he can?

Again, I disagree with all of this, pretty much. I'm not saying that he's literally obliged to get federal jobs based on preference point; I'm saying he's got the resume to walk in to plenty of federal and NGO jobs. I also disagree that the OP's softs don't look spectacular when combined; there's a compelling narrative to be told by a person who left the army for the peace corp. One of my law school BFFs was in the Peace Corp, and whenever anyone finds that out at a networking/recruiting event, it's all they want to talk about. I do agree that it's not necessarily "below both medians" admit good, but I think it's possible it'd strike a nerve with an adcomm someplace that would reach way down stats-wise for him.

This isn't a case of a liberal arts new grad going to law school to avoid the real world. Someone who has accomplished the things the OP has will make something, and make something good out of a law degree. And, a law degree is nowhere near the commitment of taking an army commission.

[whymeohgodno]

Eh these softs are good not great.

Maybe an adcom will be super impressed, but it'll be a crap shoot. You should retake. With a better LSAT OP will be in good position for many T14' and possible scholarship money.

However, the 800 lbs Gorilla is that the OP seems to be applying to law school just because he thinks he can get a good law school. First of all, he can't. But more importantly, that's a really dumb reason to apply to law school. OP will hate it, and it will ruin his life most likely. OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

I disagree on almost every point. The OP (probably a "he") could tell a quite compelling narrative of his past experiences that's likely to make an adcomm or two take a chance on him, even if others are less impressed.

Also, of all the people that have both the resume and disposition to get a job from either deep in the class or from a lesser school, it's someone who's been an army officer and a peace corpsman. He's like an auto-hire for many government and foreign development NGO jobs, and those are the kinds of jobs that people actually like doing, so there's no reason to assume he'd be miserable. And if he's been an army officer, trust me he can grind through some inane bullshit busywork, so even biglaw won't be that bad.

250K in debt (though I guess a lot less because of GI Bill, though he might have been ROTC) on maybe he'll like grinding legal work cause he was in the army is a spectacularly retarded plan.

He isn't autohire at any legal gov't job. Though he gets a lot of preference in many regular gov't jobs, which he can apply for right now.

OP admits he has no idea what he wants to do, he simply shouldn't go to law school unless he wants it. Law school is a massive commitment. Someone who get's big law doesn't break even for at least 7 years. That's a huge chunk of life just because his buddy said "he has a good law school resume."

None of his softs are great on their own, and there really isn't any reason why they look spectacular when combined. He has legit good softs (which is rare), but I doubt he has "Below both median" admit softs. If his GPA was 3.9 or his LSAT was 169+ he'd get a lot of acceptances, but below both medians is a hard sell. And like I said, even if he does get Cornell at sticker, he's going to go deeply in debt just because he can?

You don't have to worry. OP won't get Cornell or any other T14 with possible exception of B. His numbers are 25th percentile or below for almost every T14 school which is the definition of an autoreject.

[anonymous TLSer]

Thanks for responding everyone! I apologize for the lengthy absence, I've been super busy for the last month and out of the country for the past week and a half. I found most of the posts edifying. I did want to clarify, that I did do T for A. Or rather I should say I am doing it.

Eh these softs are good not great.

OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

The only thing is- I'm not enjoying it. I mean I'm sure I'll still be able to work it into my PS (I really have learned that I am just not a kid person lol). Either way, I finish my commitment next May and I would say I am 99% positive I will go to law school.

This summer I'm visiting Duke, Chicago, Berkley, Cornell, and Penn. I will likely also make a few non T14 visits... and a couple safety school visits.

I will definitely go to the best school that accepts me. Between money I saved up while in Iraq, my GI bill, and my Teach for America Education Voucher, I should be basically debt free no matter where I go.

Sorry for such a long post. I wanted to keep the original as short as possible so people would actually read it. Lastly, and I left this out in my original post because I didn't really think about it, but... I'm gay. Do you think that will have any effect or should I not mention it?

[Zeus]

officer for four years
2 tours in Iraq.
Peace Corps.
Teach for America.

gay.

This has to be the most impressive/interesting combination of soft factors that I have ever seen on TLS!

Wow. Thats pretty much all I can muster.

[005618502]

Thanks for responding everyone! I apologize for the lengthy absence, I've been super busy for the last month and out of the country for the past week and a half. I found most of the posts edifying. I did want to clarify, that I did do T for A. Or rather I should say I am doing it.

Eh these softs are good not great.

OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

The only thing is- I'm not enjoying it. I mean I'm sure I'll still be able to work it into my PS (I really have learned that I am just not a kid person lol). Either way, I finish my commitment next May and I would say I am 99% positive I will go to law school.

This summer I'm visiting Duke, Chicago, Berkley, Cornell, and Penn. I will likely also make a few non T14 visits... and a couple safety school visits.

I will definitely go to the best school that accepts me. Between money I saved up while in Iraq, my GI bill, and my Teach for America Education Voucher, I should be basically debt free no matter where I go.

Sorry for such a long post. I wanted to keep the original as short as possible so people would actually read it. Lastly, and I left this out in my original post because I didn't really think about it, but... I'm gay. Do you think that will have any effect or should I not mention it?

I would say all of the schools in bold are a waste of time to visit unless you plan on retaking... Maybe Berkeley, but even then, they love GPA even more than softs. Maybe being out of UG for so long can give you a shot.

Be ready to take something in the mid 20 range. But as you said, with your savings, you may graduate debt free which is an amazing thing.

Congrats on the softs! I would just be careful about spending that kind of money traveling until the acceptances roll in.

[ahduth]

Thanks for responding everyone! I apologize for the lengthy absence, I've been super busy for the last month and out of the country for the past week and a half. I found most of the posts edifying. I did want to clarify, that I did do T for A. Or rather I should say I am doing it.

Eh these softs are good not great.

OP should do the T for A and actually help people.

The only thing is- I'm not enjoying it. I mean I'm sure I'll still be able to work it into my PS (I really have learned that I am just not a kid person lol). Either way, I finish my commitment next May and I would say I am 99% positive I will go to law school.

This summer I'm visiting Duke, Chicago, Berkley, Cornell, and Penn. I will likely also make a few non T14 visits... and a couple safety school visits.

I will definitely go to the best school that accepts me. Between money I saved up while in Iraq, my GI bill, and my Teach for America Education Voucher, I should be basically debt free no matter where I go.

Sorry for such a long post. I wanted to keep the original as short as possible so people would actually read it. Lastly, and I left this out in my original post because I didn't really think about it, but... I'm gay. Do you think that will have any effect or should I not mention it?

You probably should mention it, but I'm with the cynics here. You should nail down a better LSAT score. Your softs are great, but... law schools are just fancy vocational schools, and there's a limited number of spots for exceptional people.

Make sure to apply to Michigan? Just a thought.

[rocon7383]

alarmed at how little this was said in this thread but thank you so much for your service. Best of luck to you!

[vanwinkle]

officer for four years
2 tours in Iraq.
Peace Corps.
Teach for America.

gay.

This has to be the most impressive/interesting combination of soft factors that I have ever seen on TLS!

Wow. Thats pretty much all I can muster.

Banned for being the same person.

Alting is dumb. Alting with "anonymous TLSer" is dumber. Responding to your obvious alt as if it's a different person is just plain stupid.

[NYC Law]

You will probably never get HYS even if you get a 180. Best thing to do is retake in this situation and get a 170+. You're looking at T30 territory right now. But you mentioned that you're fed up working for a shit job so why are you planning on becoming a lawyer?

I just wanted to throw in that dpk is arguably one of the worst advisors on TLS.

[mikeditkaisgod]

You will probably never get HYS even if you get a 180. Best thing to do is retake in this situation and get a 170+. You're looking at T30 territory right now. But you mentioned that you're fed up working for a shit job so why are you planning on becoming a lawyer?

I just looked at your LSN and I think it could be argued that you outperformed your numbers, meaning your (as you describe them) "interesting softs" could have pushed you over the edge and gotten you $ (such as at GULC) that you wouldn't have received without those softs. I'm pointing this out to prove that soft factors do play a part in admissions, to a certain extent.

This person is looking at much better than T30 and I think it's arrogant on your part to say that.

Also, if being a lawyer is such a "shit job" then why are you becoming one?