3.33-3.4 hypo LSDAS GPA (in undergrad), 161 (real lsat) Forum

[pugilistjd]

From what I've seen, TLSers don't harp on hypo GPAs as much, but if you want, just go with the lower end. That's what I've been using on the admissions calculators.
Here are some schools I'd like to go to:
Reaches:
GW (PT)
Fordham (PT)

Targets:
Cardozo
Tulane
Loyola Marymount
American
Brooklyn
Temple

Safety:
UMiami

Any suggestions would be helpful. Just don't be a dick. Also, if you say "retake", I may jump through the screen and strangle you. Yes, I am considering retaking, but just for shits and giggles, chance me with my numbers as is.
Thanks in advance and sorry for any perceived rudeness. Its been a long day.

[rebexness]

[pugilistjd]

Law school predictor doesn't look positive for you.

Retake sucks but its reality, unless you want to pay sticker and get super lucky.

I'm probably going to put off more replies by doing this, but whatever.

Did you look at my list of schools? LSP puts me near 50% at Brooklyn, American, Temple, Loyola, and 66% at Miami. That's the majority of the schools I plan on applying to and I would be content going to any one of them.
So, I'm guessing you're going by typical TLS standards: Any school outside T20 is worthless without a scholly or at least cheap in-state tuition. That's fine. But, thanks for using your breadth of knowledge by reading the results of an admissions calculator for me. Then again, TLSers do openly admit to not knowing shit about admissions outside T14, so I shouldn't assume you could provide any meaningful advice.

[rebexness]

[pugilistjd]

Using LSP alone I don't tend to rely on anything that isn't at least a Strong Consider.

And?
That's consistent with what I've already said about your standards:

Strong Consider=$$ in most cases
There's only one Strong Consider and its UMiami which is TTT according to TLS
No T20 schools?
9/10 schools at sticker?
--------------
Retake or don't go.

[pugilistjd]

On the whole, do people agree that non-T14/T20 advice from TLSers is lazy and formulaic?

I know there are exceptions because I have seen some helpful comments from people who are either alum/enrolled or know people from some tier 2/lower tier 1 schools. Anyone fit that criteria? I would seriously love to hear from people who don't immediately balk at the thought of debt or making 50k at their first job in a profession where it takes years to establish oneself.
Or, understandably, if I've already put people off by acting like a beligerent asshole, then move along.

[minnbills]

On the whole, do people agree that non-T14/T20 advice from TLSers is lazy and formulaic?

I know there are exceptions because I have seen some helpful comments from people who are either alum/enrolled or know people from some tier 2/lower tier 1 schools. Anyone fit that criteria? I would seriously love to hear from people who don't immediately balk at the thought of debt or making 50k at their first job in a profession where it takes years to establish oneself.
Or, understandably, if I've already put people off by acting like a beligerent asshole, then move along.

A 50k a year job is better than what most get (seriously). If you don't go to Biglaw or attain a position in an otherwise bigger firm, you're putting yourself on a trajectory that is less likely to reap significant financial reward.

Moreover, even if you do get 50k or so a year, with 100k plus in debt, you will struggle mightily to keep body and soul together for a good while.

[3ThrowAway99]

Retake. HTH.

[pugilistjd]

A 50k a year job is better than what most get (seriously). If you don't go to Biglaw or attain a position in an otherwise bigger firm, you're putting yourself on a trajectory that is less likely to reap significant financial reward.

Moreover, even if you do get 50k or so a year, with 100k plus in debt, you will struggle mightily to keep body and soul together for a good while.

Ah nice, two more TLS norms:
1. If the OP accepts what TLS deems as horrible prospects, always claim that the prospects are EVEN WORSE. For example, if OP says they're fine with making 80k, say that salaries are either 100k+ for big law, which will probably never happen, or 50k non-big law. If OP is cool with 50k, say that he'd be lucky to make 30k. If OP is fine with 30k, tell them they'll be working at Red Lobster.

2. I only think this is partially true of your post, but typically, TLSers conflate questions about 1st job prospects for new JDs with questions of long-term career prospects, which they are actually unqualified to answer.

[aspire2more]

Without knowing about URM status and other diversity factors, soft factors like honors or leadership roles, C&F issues, work experience, etc. it is hard to do more than quote "the results of an admissions calculator" to you. I'm not sure what else anyone could use to realistically make a prediction if they only know your LSAT score and GPA. HTH.

[pugilistjd]

Without knowing about URM status and other diversity factors, soft factors like honors or leadership roles, C&F issues, work experience, etc. it is hard to do more than quote "the results of an admissions calculator" to you. I'm not sure what else anyone could use to realistically make a prediction if they only know your LSAT score and GPA. HTH.

Fair enough. Thanks for the thoughtful response. Any advice would be appreciated.

NON-URM, working full-time overnights throughout undergrad at large/high-end animal hospital (I can list job duties if that would matter), supervised client care team of 7+ at same hospital for one year (again, I can list duties), significant upward GPA trend after transfer from community college to top 20 public university, independent study in ethics, former HS dropout (not sure if thats a soft or something I should keep secret :/)

I may tack on some internships this summer, but I'll probably end up taking extra classes to make up for my horrific community college transcript.

[DeeCee]

OP, why are you so angry? Take what everyone says on TLS with a grain of salt. I say apply to these schools since you have a 50% chance or greater at your targets, and see how your cycle turns out. If I would have listened to TLSers I would have undershot my chances at schools. At this point I've got offers at a T14 and a T30 I'm considering, when everyone thought I was destined for the T2. Do what you think is best, you obviously have researched your choices enough to know your "rough" chances at each place.

[bceagles182]

I applied to some of the same schools last year with a 162/3.4.

Based off my experience:

Out at GW and Fordham
WL at Cardozo
In at Tulane, Loyola, American, Brooklyn, Temple, Miami

I was rejected to Fordham PT, was WLed at Cardozo, and received money at Temple

[Fark-o-vision]

ITT: OP flames by acting like a douche to everyone who says anything. As per the new TLS standard, the majority try and have a conversation anyway.

I miss the old days.

Also, be mindful that, in general, the further down the rankings you go the more formulaic the admissions seem to be. I'm not trying to knock them. Does anyone care if George Washington goes from 27 to 20 back to 23? No, because George Washington is what it is. For lower ranked tier one and tier two schools, though, people seem to try and read momentum into rankings movement. When median LSAT dropping from 162 to 161 could cause a 15 place move, schools have to be more stringent (didn't do the math on this, so I don't know if its quite that severe, but you get what I mean).

TL;DR version: Yale can take a 3.18/158 student who is really able to sell that they will have success (though that selling is near impossible) because they really don't give a fuck. They're Yale. And that is all softs are really good for.

[pugilistjd]

ITT: OP flames by acting like a douche to everyone who says anything. As per the new TLS standard, the majority try and have a conversation anyway.

I miss the old days.

Also, be mindful that, in general, the further down the rankings you go the more formulaic the admissions seem to be. I'm not trying to knock them. Does anyone care if George Washington goes from 27 to 20 back to 23? No, because George Washington is what it is. For lower ranked tier one and tier two schools, though, people seem to try and read momentum into rankings movement. When median LSAT dropping from 162 to 161 could cause a 15 place move, schools have to be more stringent (didn't do the math on this, so I don't know if its quite that severe, but you get what I mean).

TL;DR version: Yale can take a 3.18/158 student who is really able to sell that they will have success (though that selling is near impossible) because they really don't give a fuck. They're Yale. And that is all softs are really good for.

I was only rude to people who give generic responses without explaining their rationale. This was helpful.

[pugilistjd]

I applied to some of the same schools last year with a 162/3.4.

Based off my experience:

Out at GW and Fordham
WL at Cardozo
In at Tulane, Loyola, American, Brooklyn, Temple, Miami

I was rejected to Fordham PT, was WLed at Cardozo, and received money at Temple

This was helpful. Thank you.

[pugilistjd]

OP, why are you so angry? Take what everyone says on TLS with a grain of salt. I say apply to these schools since you have a 50% chance or greater at your targets, and see how your cycle turns out. If I would have listened to TLSers I would have undershot my chances at schools. At this point I've got offers at a T14 and a T30 I'm considering, when everyone thought I was destined for the T2. Do what you think is best, you obviously have researched your choices enough to know your "rough" chances at each place.

Thanks for the assurance.

[2011Law]

I think UF should be a target with those numbers if you're interested in any part of Florida, though I'd only go if you figured out a way to get in-state tuition. UM is fine if you want to work in South Florida, but I would not go without a substantial scholarship.

The reason people say to retake is because they can see the future (career prospects / debt load) you'll have coming out of whatever school will accept you with those numbers, and it ain't all that pretty. If you think you can do better on the LSAT, then retake. If not, just inform yourself of all the pros and cons of going to those law schools and make your own decision.

[aspire2more]

Without knowing about URM status and other diversity factors, soft factors like honors or leadership roles, C&F issues, work experience, etc. it is hard to do more than quote "the results of an admissions calculator" to you. I'm not sure what else anyone could use to realistically make a prediction if they only know your LSAT score and GPA. HTH.

Fair enough. Thanks for the thoughtful response. Any advice would be appreciated.

NON-URM, working full-time overnights throughout undergrad at large/high-end animal hospital (I can list job duties if that would matter), supervised client care team of 7+ at same hospital for one year (again, I can list duties), significant upward GPA trend after transfer from community college to top 20 public university, independent study in ethics, former HS dropout (not sure if thats a soft or something I should keep secret :/)

I may tack on some internships this summer, but I'll probably end up taking extra classes to make up for my horrific community college transcript.

If you write a very good addendum (i.e. not whiny, not arrogant, etc.) explaining how your full-time job affected your GPA and pointing out the upward trend, I think you've got a very convincing and reasonable explanation for why your grades aren't higher - you just need to present it well on paper. Your work experience might also be a good place to think about in terms of an engaging personal statement. You'll really want to make sure your PS is compelling and doesn't sound generic. If you are working to pay for your own education and/or you have a great story to tell about how you overcame your earlier academic record or other (related/unrelated) challenges, that could be a plus for your application too. Since your schools are in vastly different areas, you may also want to work in something about why you want to relocate to go to XYZ school.

Basically, you want to make sure that any school you apply to (who doesn't deny your application immediately based on your numbers) is given no other reason to toss your app in the ding pile.

I agree that UMiami would be a likely safety in your case, but I'm not sure you even need to apply there. In fact, if you don't have strong connections to the area and a desire to remain there, I'd remove it from the list now. Anyone can jump in and correct me if they have read more about any of these schools than I have (i.e. cursory glance at materials mailed to my home), but I'd guess you'd be in at Temple and Loyola. Brooklyn, Cardozo, and Tulane you probably have a decent shot at and I agree with where you've placed them in your grouping. I'd add American to the section with George Washington and Fordham as reaches. Additionally, I don't know anything about Fordham, but if you get in to GW or American, I'd suggest you consider the debt very seriously. Unless you pull off a substantial scholarship or can count on a high paying job or income-based repayment after graduating, I would probably avoid going to either one unless you're dead set on going to a school in D.C.

[aspire2more]

I think UF should be a target with those numbers if you're interested in any part of Florida, though I'd only go if you figured out a way to get in-state tuition. UM is fine if you want to work in South Florida, but I would not go without a substantial scholarship.

The reason people say to retake is because they can see the future (career prospects / debt load) you'll have coming out of whatever school will accept you with those numbers, and it ain't all that pretty. If you think you can do better on the LSAT, then retake. If not, just inform yourself of all the pros and cons of going to those law schools and make your own decision.

+1 This amount of debt is not something to take on lightly: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I could easily buy a four bedroom house in my area for less than the estimated cost of attending Cardozo, American, etc.

[pugilistjd]

I think UF should be a target with those numbers if you're interested in any part of Florida, though I'd only go if you figured out a way to get in-state tuition. UM is fine if you want to work in South Florida, but I would not go without a substantial scholarship.

The reason people say to retake is because they can see the future (career prospects / debt load) you'll have coming out of whatever school will accept you with those numbers, and it ain't all that pretty. If you think you can do better on the LSAT, then retake. If not, just inform yourself of all the pros and cons of going to those law schools and make your own decision.

I think UF should be a target with those numbers if you're interested in any part of Florida, though I'd only go if you figured out a way to get in-state tuition. UM is fine if you want to work in South Florida, but I would not go without a substantial scholarship.

The reason people say to retake is because they can see the future (career prospects / debt load) you'll have coming out of whatever school will accept you with those numbers, and it ain't all that pretty. If you think you can do better on the LSAT, then retake. If not, just inform yourself of all the pros and cons of going to those law schools and make your own decision.

Thanks for suggestion. I was thinking about UF, but you're right that its not worth it without in-state. Plus, I'd only want to practice in South Florida at least to start. Agreed on UMiami @ sticker. I'm also adding Maryland and U Houston to the list because they seem to dominate locally.

See my comments above about TLSers' outlook on T2 career prospects/debt.

As for retaking, I'm thinking about it. My best practice test (Dec '10) was 167 and that was after a 6 week prep course, 4/6 weeks I was either working or in school.

[pugilistjd]

Aspire, I agree with you on cost/benefit for American/Dozo and I'd add Brooklyn + potentially Loyola. I've put all of those schools into a separate list due to the saturated markets they feed into. However, I still think they're worth applying to for different reasons. The other list contains schools in what I think are less saturated markets that I'd like to attend:
Tulane
Maryland (added)
UMiami (Not saturated but still shaky? If so, explain)
U Houston (added)
Temple

[bearsfan1]

Aspire, I agree with you on cost/benefit for American/Dozo and I'd add Brooklyn + potentially Loyola. I've put all of those schools into a separate list due to the saturated markets they feed into. However, I still think they're worth applying to for different reasons. The other list contains schools in what I think are less saturated markets that I'd like to attend:
Tulane
Maryland (added)
UMiami (Not saturated but still shaky? If so, explain)
U Houston (added)
Temple

Why ask a question if you're just going to freak out on anybody who attempts to answer your question with an answer that doesn't appease you?

[pugilistjd]

Why ask a question if you're just going to freak out on anybody who attempts to answer your question with an answer that doesn't appease you?

Yes, its true. I'm only appeased by well-reasoned, helpful responses and am somehow irritated by generic, thoughtless mimicry. You've got me pegged.

[kalvano]

Where would you like to live after law school?

Find an appropriate school in that area and go there.