168 / ~3.94, 4.0 UGPA non-URM (next cycle) Forum

[Ialdabaoth]

I'll be applying as soon as applications become available next cycle with average-good softs and a demonstrated interest in PI environmental. Also, I'm from the Southeast but don't have any strong preference on where I'll eventually practice.

I've looked at LSP and LSN a lot, but I would love some feedback on how applying as soon as apps are available and/or EDing might affect my cycle since the ED feature on LSP doesn't really seem to work.

Reaches and Targets

1. (Stanford) I know it's a serious reach. - CONSIDER
2. Berkeley - STRONG CONSIDER
3. NYU - Possible ED - CONSIDER
4. UVA - Possible ED - CONSIDER
5. Duke - STRONG CONSIDER
6. GULC - STRONG CONSIDER
7. UCLA - STRONG CONSIDER
8. Texas - ADMIT
9. Vanderbilt - ADMIT
10. GWU - Possible ED for full scholarship consideration - ADMIT
11. Emory - ADMIT

Thanks!

EDIT: Removed possibly identifying softs information and added LSP chances and a little more info.

[5ky]

Sorry to say, but those softs aren't any different than what adcomms will be seeing from thousands of kids.

My honest advice? Retake. Even a 2 point bump could be huge for you.

[moopness]

retake, get 4 more points on the LSAT, go to Harvard /thread

[romothesavior]

As someone who had a 168, I'd say retake and get to 170 if you can.

If you don't re-take or improve, I think you're competitive at all of those schools except Stanford and NYU, although you may have to ED to get into UVA. Duke and Georgetown are also toss-ups. Why no love for Michigan or Penn?

[r6_philly]

You should have a decent shot at Berkeley on the environment law angle. You seem like the perfect candidate - a focus they like, decent LSAT, great GPA, research experience.

[Ialdabaoth]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm pretty sure I'm not retaking because I won't be available to retake until October during my admissions cycle and want to be able to apply as early as possible. Also, I significantly outperformed my PT high, so I would only consider retaking if I could get my PT average 10+ points higher than where it was before I took the December test. If applying next year goes badly, however, I will study even more than I did the first time, retake, and then reapply.

But with these numbers and softs what do you think my chances might be? I'm especially interested in Boalt and NYU (with possible ED). Thanks again!

EDIT: Sorry, just saw the two above posts.

[Ialdabaoth]

As someone who had a 168, I'd say retake and get to 170 if you can.

If you don't re-take or improve, I think you're competitive at all of those schools except Stanford and NYU, although you may have to ED to get into UVA. Duke and Georgetown are also toss-ups. Why no love for Michigan or Penn?

Thanks, romo!

I actually have had Michigan in and out of my list for some time, but I think I would need to ED there to have a chance, and I'm not too keen on the summer start thing. And I know Penn is a great school, but all of the other schools have much stronger environmental offerings. (I know I shouldn't choose a school based solely on curriculum, but I don't see any downside to focusing on the others in the t14 that do have more enviro opportunities.)

[Ialdabaoth]

You should have a decent shot at Berkeley on the environment law angle. You seem like the perfect candidate - a focus they like, decent LSAT, great GPA, research experience.

Thanks for your feedback! Berkeley was the first school I got really excited about, and I think I would absolutely love to go there.

You're considering Berk as well, right? I think I remember you talking in another thread about being interested in its IP program.

[romothesavior]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm pretty sure I'm not retaking because I won't be available to retake until October during my admissions cycle and want to be able to apply as early as possible. Also, I significantly outperformed my PT high, so I would only consider retaking if I could get my PT average 10+ points higher than where it was before I took the December test. If applying next year goes badly, however, I will study even more than I did the first time, retake, and then reapply.

But with these numbers and softs what do you think my chances might be? I'm especially interested in Boalt and NYU (with possible ED). Thanks again!

EDIT: Sorry, just saw the two above posts.

If you studied as hard as you possibly could and don't think you can do better, then don't retake. You have a solid score and a great GPA to go with it.

But if you think you can study harder and get your PT score up and improve, then you should retake. Taking the LSAT in October would 1) not prevent you from applying early and 2) would have no impact on your odds of admission. Many (if not most) T14 applicants apply with October LSATs, even for ED.

[r6_philly]

You should have a decent shot at Berkeley on the environment law angle. You seem like the perfect candidate - a focus they like, decent LSAT, great GPA, research experience.

Thanks for your feedback! Berkeley was the first school I got really excited about, and I think I would absolutely love to go there.

You're considering Berk as well, right? I think I remember you talking in another thread about being interested in its IP program.

No problem, I feel like I should answer you without saying "retake"

I am in deed seriously considering Boalt. Penn is the more practical choice by a lot of reasons but I am really excited about what Boalt has to offer in my specialty. Only H and S can come closer to what Boalt offers. However my cycle is far from over and I have to wait for aid offers so we will see how it all turns out.

Good luck! Retake if you are sure you can do better, if not, you still have a great shot at Boalt - just write a Boalt-specific PS at least 3 pages and apply as early as humanly possible

[MrKappus]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

[Ialdabaoth]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm pretty sure I'm not retaking because I won't be available to retake until October during my admissions cycle and want to be able to apply as early as possible. Also, I significantly outperformed my PT high, so I would only consider retaking if I could get my PT average 10+ points higher than where it was before I took the December test. If applying next year goes badly, however, I will study even more than I did the first time, retake, and then reapply.

But with these numbers and softs what do you think my chances might be? I'm especially interested in Boalt and NYU (with possible ED). Thanks again!

EDIT: Sorry, just saw the two above posts.

If you studied as hard as you possibly could and don't think you can do better, then don't retake. You have a solid score and a great GPA to go with it.

But if you think you can study harder and get your PT score up and improve, then you should retake. Taking the LSAT in October would 1) not prevent you from applying early and 2) would have no impact on your odds of admission. Many (if not most) T14 applicants apply with October LSATs, even for ED.

Thanks for those points. I know ED deadlines are post-October score release, but I was under the impression that while October scores were not a significant disadvantage, applying ~September 1 would give me a better chance of admission at some schools. Isn't there some speculation that Berkeley, in particular, likes early applicants?

[r6_philly]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

168/3.9+ is good enough for Penn and UM if early and well done.

Penn:
http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... ,8&type=jd

UM:
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... ,8&type=jd

[Ialdabaoth]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

Do you really think that? On LSP I'm an Admit at Cornell and a Strong Consider at BPM and DNG. I know N is out since I don't have significant work experience. Also, on LSN this year there are already a couple of non-URM, 3.9-4.0, 168 admits at NYU.

EDIT: Sorry for repetition with some of what philly said. My computer is being weird and not showing recent posts before I submit.

[romothesavior]

Thanks for those points. I know ED deadlines are post-October score release, but I was under the impression that while October scores were not a significant disadvantage, applying ~September 1 would give me a better chance of admission at some schools. Isn't there some speculation that Berkeley, in particular, likes early applicants?

Applying in September rather than October would provide you with a minimal boost. An extra 3-5 points on the LSAT would provide you with a massive boost. Sacrificing a potentially higher LSAT to get a small boost of applying early would not be worth it at all.

You could also apply to schools early and let them know you are re-taking in October. That way, some schools may review you and admit you, but others would hold off until they got your LSAT score. And some may admit you, and then re-evaluate your financial aid package if you get a better score.

You sound like a smart guy with a great GPA and solid LSAT. Give yourself the best shot at success, which it sounds like could involve re-taking in October. Look at it this way: re-taking in October cannot hurt, but it can help you a LOT. Even if you apply early, take the test, and don't improve, you'll still be in the same position you were in before.

Good luck.

[Ialdabaoth]

You should have a decent shot at Berkeley on the environment law angle. You seem like the perfect candidate - a focus they like, decent LSAT, great GPA, research experience.

Thanks for your feedback! Berkeley was the first school I got really excited about, and I think I would absolutely love to go there.

You're considering Berk as well, right? I think I remember you talking in another thread about being interested in its IP program.

No problem, I feel like I should answer you without saying "retake"

I am in deed seriously considering Boalt. Penn is the more practical choice by a lot of reasons but I am really excited about what Boalt has to offer in my specialty. Only H and S can come closer to what Boalt offers. However my cycle is far from over and I have to wait for aid offers so we will see how it all turns out.

Good luck! Retake if you are sure you can do better, if not, you still have a great shot at Boalt - just write a Boalt-specific PS at least 3 pages and apply as early as humanly possible

Yeah, I knew I would get a lot of "retake" answers with my sub-170 LSAT, haha.

Thanks so much for the app tips and best of luck with the rest of your cycle! Maybe we'll both be at Boalt one day

[Ialdabaoth]

Thanks for those points. I know ED deadlines are post-October score release, but I was under the impression that while October scores were not a significant disadvantage, applying ~September 1 would give me a better chance of admission at some schools. Isn't there some speculation that Berkeley, in particular, likes early applicants?

Applying in September rather than October would provide you with a minimal boost. An extra 3-5 points on the LSAT would provide you with a massive boost. Sacrificing a potentially higher LSAT to get a small boost of applying early would not be worth it at all.

You could also apply to schools early and let them know you are re-taking in October. That way, some schools may review you and admit you, but others would hold off until they got your LSAT score. And some may admit you, and then re-evaluate your financial aid package if you get a better score.

You sound like a smart guy with a great GPA and solid LSAT. Give yourself the best shot at success, which it sounds like could involve re-taking in October. Look at it this way: re-taking in October cannot hurt, but it can help you a LOT. Even if you apply early, take the test, and don't improve, you'll still be in the same position you were in before.

Good luck.

Thanks! I really do appreciate your advice. How detrimental would it be though if I retook in October and scored significantly lower than 168, like 165 or less? None of the schools I'm seriously considering do any hard averaging (at least not that I've read about in the research I've done so far), but would this look really terrible?

[Bildungsroman]

Ialdabaoth, I have similar numbers to you (168/3.9+) and have so far been admitted to GULC and Texas (among other schools not on your list), so I'd say you have a good chance at both of those schools. Also, Lawschoolnumbers has seen several people so far with these numbers get into Berkeley, NYU regular decision, UVA regular decision, UCLA, and Vanderbilt. I'm personally waiting to hear back from NYU and Berkeley, so if you ask me later in the year I can give you more info on how my cycle went. I recommend applying very early (unlike me) so you can be in the first wave of acceptances.

[MrKappus]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

Do you really think that? On LSP I'm an Admit at Cornell and a Strong Consider at BPM and DNG. I know N is out since I don't have significant work experience. Also, on LSN this year there are already a couple of non-URM, 3.9-4.0, 168 admits at NYU.

EDIT: Sorry for repetition with some of what philly said. My computer is being weird and not showing recent posts before I submit.

Eh wtf do I know...I go to a T30. Maybe you're good to go. Either way, you #'s are solid and you'll end up somewhere decent to very decent. G'luck.

[r6_philly]

Eh wtf do I know...I go to a T30. Maybe you're good to go. Either way, you #'s are solid and you'll end up somewhere decent to very decent. G'luck.

TBF the questions in this thread are "what are my chances" not "where am I going to end up for sure". Sure only a small percentage of people with sub 170s end up at T14's but that doesn't mean the chance is 0-10%. Based on the LSN numbers pulled at Penn/Michigan it's more like 30-40% with another 30-40% going to WL.

And if OP EDPenn/Michigan he is almost guaranteed to get in, and a great chance at NYU ED. For Berkeley his LSAT is 1 point above median and GPA > 75%.

[Ialdabaoth]

Ialdabaoth, I have similar numbers to you (168/3.9+) and have so far been admitted to GULC and Texas (among other schools not on your list), so I'd say you have a good chance at both of those schools. Also, Lawschoolnumbers has seen several people so far with these numbers get into Berkeley, NYU regular decision, UVA regular decision, UCLA, and Vanderbilt. I'm personally waiting to hear back from NYU and Berkeley, so if you ask me later in the year I can give you more info on how my cycle went. I recommend applying very early (unlike me) so you can be in the first wave of acceptances.

Thanks for the advice!

I found you on LSN, so I'll follow your cycle on there. Best of luck!

[canes]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

This is wrong.

Apply everywhere and see what happens, you will most definitely be in at a few T14s.

[romothesavior]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

This is wrong.

Apply everywhere and see what happens, you will most definitely be in at a few T14s.

+1. I got into two T14s with a 168/3.75. OP is likely very competitive at a number of lower T10s (especially with ED) and is probably in at CG.

And to answer your question OP, the consensus seems to be (based off of stories on TLS and all that) that lower re-takes will not negatively affect you at most schools. Most schools simply take the highest score, and even ones that say things like "We take the whole application into account, including multiple scores, blah blah" are just blowing smoke. Almost all schools take the highest, which is pretty evident from LSN. IMO, a re-take just comes down to whether you think you can do better. If so, retake. If not, just apply and see what happens.

[AreJay711]

As someone who had a 168, I'd say retake and get to 170 if you can.

If you don't re-take or improve, I think you're competitive at all of those schools except Stanford and NYU, although you may have to ED to get into UVA. Duke and Georgetown are also toss-ups. Why no love for Michigan or Penn?

Thanks, romo!

I actually have had Michigan in and out of my list for some time, but I think I would need to ED there to have a chance, and I'm not too keen on the summer start thing. And I know Penn is a great school, but all of the other schools have much stronger environmental offerings. (I know I shouldn't choose a school based solely on curriculum, but I don't see any downside to focusing on the others in the t14 that do have more enviro opportunities.)

I have a 168 / 3.94 and actually got a small scholarship to Michigan so I think it is very possible to get in RD with good essays.

[Ialdabaoth]

As someone who had a 168, I'd say retake and get to 170 if you can.

If you don't re-take or improve, I think you're competitive at all of those schools except Stanford and NYU, although you may have to ED to get into UVA. Duke and Georgetown are also toss-ups. Why no love for Michigan or Penn?

Thanks, romo!

I actually have had Michigan in and out of my list for some time, but I think I would need to ED there to have a chance, and I'm not too keen on the summer start thing. And I know Penn is a great school, but all of the other schools have much stronger environmental offerings. (I know I shouldn't choose a school based solely on curriculum, but I don't see any downside to focusing on the others in the t14 that do have more enviro opportunities.)

I have a 168 / 3.94 and actually got a small scholarship to Michigan so I think it is very possible to get in RD with good essays.

AreJay, that's awesome that you got $ at Michigan--congrats! And, just to clarify, you mean you applied RD and got that, right?

Also, thanks again to everybody who has responded!