Appreciate your time and help - Army Vet Forum

[CoolBreeze]

Hello,

I want to be a patent attorney. Here is a little about me and my scores:

-Master of Science in Electrical Engineering 3.76/4.0. My research was published as a conference paper at MIT.

-Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering 3.0/4.0 (Started out poorly including probation but finished strong with 2 continuous semesters on the Dean's List).

-LSAT score: 171

-Served in the US Army for 2.5 years with 1.5 years to go.

-Worked as a database developer while going to grad school.

-I am trying to use the Post 9/11 GI Bill along with the Yellow Ribbon Program (VA+University scholarship) to go to one of the top 14 law schools.

What do you think are my chances of getting admission (and maybe even a coveted seat at the Yellow Ribbon program)

[Spoonmanners]

While Army Vet is a cool thing to put on your resume, and (may) give you a bump, you have an awesome 171, and a shitty 3.0 UGA GPA. I don't know of actual progress being anything other than perhaps a tie breaker.

Master programs are cool, but don't factor into the numbers the law school reports.

You gotta remember that schools want the elite and diverse group of students, but they also need to keep their rankings, so they don't usually take people under their 50%'s unless they are URMS or such.

Top 14 is possible with 171. Depends on the school. Some are UGA heavy, and some are LSAT heavy. And some will take you because you balance out the opposite side of which they are heavy on.

I wouldn't expect much outside of the back end of the top 14, but it seems pretty likely.

[JG Hall]

Being a vet is bigger than the above seems to think. Also, 3.0 is in engineering. Basically blanket everything north of UT/Vandy. Plus, I assume that being a vet with a ME means you're a few years removed from the UGPA?

[CoolBreeze]

I went to graduate school right after my undergraduate degree. One of the reasons were because my school offered me a full scholarship to pursue my Master's.

My academic advisor told me that the Master's GPA was my latest GPA and would be the one people would look at for future programs. Is that not true for Law Schools?

I was hoping graduating with honors from my grad program would somewhat cover my average GPA during undergrad.

Thank you for your responses.

[KMaine]

For a couple of reasons, law schools will give your undergraduate GPA much more weight than your Master's GPA.

[CanadianWolf]

KMaine: Could you eloborate on those reasons ? I understand that USNews & the LSDAS recognize only undergraduate GPAs, but, other than for rankings, what are some other reasons ?

[Rawlsian]

The vet status really only helps if you were infantry/scout or SF. If you're a pogue, your status will probably hurt you, and it may be better not to disclose.

But from my experience, I think the boost is fairly small. I've seen a couple of anecdotes where a soldier performed much better than her numbers. However, I suspect that this was more from a really well crafted application than the vet bullet point on a resume. I actually think you're MSE is more appealing than the vet status. On LSN, a couple of people got into Vandy/Cornell with similar numbers (GPA slightly better). Apply widely. Check http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com and plan to have similar results.

[kalvano]

Law schools do not take into account the masters GPA because 1) it isn't reported to USNWR and 2) lots of people have masters. It's nothing really special. It won't help you much, if at all. Also, masters programs tend to have overly-inflated GPA's.

Opinions are mixed on whether or not service will help...at the very least, it's a small bump. It seems to be more than a small bump in a lot of cases, but suffice to say it won't hurt at all, regardless of what you did in the service. I don't know where the above poster is getting the idea that schools only look favorably upon infantry / scouts. That's ridiculous.

Is the 3.0 your LSDAS GPA? If so, that will make it tougher. Cornell might bite, and you might ED to one of the lower T14...Duke or UVA. Check LSN to see if they have cutoffs at certain GPA's. That 171 might help overcome the GPA when combined with military service.

[casper13]

ED UVA and with yellow Ribbon it is basically free tution. You have a good chance as I have heard they like vets

I know UCLA also offers full tilt for yellow ribbon but your GPA may not be enough, maybe an ED to them if you like west coast. Yellow ribbon and full post 9/11 GI Bill will make it so that you can ED and not worry to much abput getting money from schools because of ED.

Search here for what schools offer what for yellow ribbon
VA Yellow ribbon website

[afa_brandon]

on an aside, you might want to verify your use of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. If you're an officer, and you're in any kind of commissioning source/loan repayment commitment, you don't start accruing time towards GI Bill eligibility until after that commitment is finished. Of course, my experience comes from the AF, so maybe Army is different.


Oh, and yellow ribbon is first-come-first-serve, so you control your own chances.

Good luck!

[Patriot1208]

The credited response here is ED to Virginia at that is your best chance at the best school and the love veterans and ED people.

[CoolBreeze]

Again, thank you for giving me all the perspectives here.

I served enlisted and earned my citizenship(+ security clearance) through my service. I was actually thinking of UVA since I love the DC/Virginia/Maryland area. If I could get in to UVA that would be great.

The reason for that 3.0 was that I worked a variety of jobs to be able to go to school in the United States. I worked (legally on campus since I was on a student visa) as a computer help desk consultant, tutor and janitor while I was going to school full time. Also my GPA for the last 1.5 years of UG that included most of my core courses was close to a 4.0. I can also get some good letters of recommendation from my professors.

Would my publications at MIT help since I am interested in becoming a IP/Patent attorney? I am seriously worried now that I know that graduate GPA is not really an important factor.

[KMaine]

KMaine: Could you eloborate on those reasons ? I understand that USNews & the LSDAS recognize only undergraduate GPAs, but, other than for rankings, what are some other reasons ?

CW - I agree with your implication that the reason they care about UGPA more is because of USNWR. I also think that, like the LSAT, it is seen as somewhat of a more reliable basis for comparison. I would take issue with this, however, as my UG was really tough on grading. Also, I think there is a perception that Master's programs hand out "A's" like candy.

[CoolBreeze]

KMaine: Could you eloborate on those reasons ? I understand that USNews & the LSDAS recognize only undergraduate GPAs, but, other than for rankings, what are some other reasons ?

CW - I agree with your implication that the reason they care about UGPA more is because of USNWR. I also think that, like the LSAT, it is seen as somewhat of a more reliable basis for comparison. I would take issue with this, however, as my UG was really tough on grading. Also, I think there is a perception that Master's programs hand out "A's" like candy.

Indeed, the Engineering Masters at my school was very competitive with 70+ students in each class. I pretty much slept 3 hours a night for the duration of grad school.

[Patriot1208]

KMaine: Could you eloborate on those reasons ? I understand that USNews & the LSDAS recognize only undergraduate GPAs, but, other than for rankings, what are some other reasons ?

CW - I agree with your implication that the reason they care about UGPA more is because of USNWR. I also think that, like the LSAT, it is seen as somewhat of a more reliable basis for comparison. I would take issue with this, however, as my UG was really tough on grading. Also, I think there is a perception that Master's programs hand out "A's" like candy.

Indeed, the Engineering Masters at my school was very competitive with 70+ students in each class. I pretty much slept 3 hours a night for the duration of grad school.

The problem is they can't know which ones are and which ones aren't. Honestly, all of this is a non issue. The graduate gpa won't help, the publications won't help, the upward grade trend won't help, the working during school won't help, but it shouldn't really matter for you unless you were expecting to go to Columbia or something. With a 3.0 171 and an army vet I would actually put you as the a very good chance at Virginia with ED. Also, maybe michigan with an ED. You'd have to pick which one you liked better though.

[KMaine]

I agree with the last post. You are a strong candidate. Good luck.

[Aggiegrad2011]

The vet status really only helps if you were infantry/scout or SF. If you're a pogue, your status will probably hurt you, and it may be better not to disclose.

... This is complete nonsense.

I went outside the wire on a daily basis on my THT in both theaters of operation (With a lot of attachment time at LSA Anaconda with 4ID) and I was a "person other than grunt (pogue)" by MOS but not by duty status. You can't lump ANY MOS into "pogue" and strip it of its status.

The only way you could validate your statement by changing it is writing that your status may not be elevated if you didn't deploy to OIF or OEF. MAYBE then people won't consider your military service to be of much worth but even then, just by signing on all the digital dotted lines at MEPS you're doing something that more than 90% of your peers won't have the intestinal fortitude to do, and for that, you get credit.

[CoolBreeze]

KMaine: Could you eloborate on those reasons ? I understand that USNews & the LSDAS recognize only undergraduate GPAs, but, other than for rankings, what are some other reasons ?

CW - I agree with your implication that the reason they care about UGPA more is because of USNWR. I also think that, like the LSAT, it is seen as somewhat of a more reliable basis for comparison. I would take issue with this, however, as my UG was really tough on grading. Also, I think there is a perception that Master's programs hand out "A's" like candy.

Indeed, the Engineering Masters at my school was very competitive with 70+ students in each class. I pretty much slept 3 hours a night for the duration of grad school.

The problem is they can't know which ones are and which ones aren't. Honestly, all of this is a non issue. The graduate gpa won't help, the publications won't help, the upward grade trend won't help, the working during school won't help, but it shouldn't really matter for you unless you were expecting to go to Columbia or something. With a 3.0 171 and an army vet I would actually put you as the a very good chance at Virginia with ED. Also, maybe michigan with an ED. You'd have to pick which one you liked better though.

Thank you. If UVA works out that would be awesome. Sorry about asking this but what does ED mean?

Also, I was thinking of looking up faculty profile and then going in to meet a couple of professors who have some experience in patent law. Is that a good idea or is that frowned upon where law school is concerned?

[CoolBreeze]

The vet status really only helps if you were infantry/scout or SF. If you're a pogue, your status will probably hurt you, and it may be better not to disclose.

... This is complete nonsense.

I went outside the wire on a daily basis on my THT in both theaters of operation (With a lot of attachment time at LSA Anaconda with 4ID) and I was a "person other than grunt (pogue)" by MOS but not by duty status. You can't lump ANY MOS into "pogue" and strip it of its status.

The only way you could validate your statement by changing it is writing that your status may not be elevated if you didn't deploy to OIF or OEF. MAYBE then people won't consider your military service to be of much worth but even then, just by signing on all the digital dotted lines at MEPS you're doing something that more than 90% of your peers won't have the intestinal fortitude to do, and for that, you get credit.

That is so true. Soldiers in so called support MOSs have to go outside the wire on details that can be anything from being a gunner to a linguist for the day.

[Patriot1208]

CW - I agree with your implication that the reason they care about UGPA more is because of USNWR. I also think that, like the LSAT, it is seen as somewhat of a more reliable basis for comparison. I would take issue with this, however, as my UG was really tough on grading. Also, I think there is a perception that Master's programs hand out "A's" like candy.

Indeed, the Engineering Masters at my school was very competitive with 70+ students in each class. I pretty much slept 3 hours a night for the duration of grad school.

The problem is they can't know which ones are and which ones aren't. Honestly, all of this is a non issue. The graduate gpa won't help, the publications won't help, the upward grade trend won't help, the working during school won't help, but it shouldn't really matter for you unless you were expecting to go to Columbia or something. With a 3.0 171 and an army vet I would actually put you as the a very good chance at Virginia with ED. Also, maybe michigan with an ED. You'd have to pick which one you liked better though.

Thank you. If UVA works out that would be awesome. Sorry about asking this but what does ED mean?

Also, I was thinking of looking up faculty profile and then going in to meet a couple of professors who have some experience in patent law. Is that a good idea or is that frowned upon where law school is concerned?

Ok, ED means Early Decision. When you apply to a school Early Decision you sign a contract that basically states that you will attend that school next year, or no school at all, if accepted. So if you applied ED to Virginia and they accepted you, and applied regulard decision to WUSTL and got in there as well you would still be bound to attend Virginia or no law school at all the next year even if you decided it wasn't your first choice. So be sure before you do it.

I can't help you with the professors, not sure they would even meet you, but it definitely wouldn't get you a boost in the admissions process.

[deadhipsters]

I think you should throw your application in at UVA and Michigan. Michigan is supposed to be very military friendly, there are a number of vets who can attest to this on TLS. Good luck.

[Rawlsian]

The vet status really only helps if you were infantry/scout or SF. If you're a pogue, your status will probably hurt you, and it may be better not to disclose.

... This is complete nonsense.

I went outside the wire on a daily basis on my THT in both theaters of operation (With a lot of attachment time at LSA Anaconda with 4ID) and I was a "person other than grunt (pogue)" by MOS but not by duty status. You can't lump ANY MOS into "pogue" and strip it of its status.

The only way you could validate your statement by changing it is writing that your status may not be elevated if you didn't deploy to OIF or OEF. MAYBE then people won't consider your military service to be of much worth but even then, just by signing on all the digital dotted lines at MEPS you're doing something that more than 90% of your peers won't have the intestinal fortitude to do, and for that, you get credit.

Whoa, I was just engaging in friendly in-service ribbing. I thought my tongue-in-cheek tone was obvious by the "your status will probably hurt you, and it may be better not to disclose" remark. It really doesn't matter if you're a pogue or not--so long as you're not in the Navy or Air Force.

P.S. I deployed once with 4ID. Were you there in 06'? Anyways, thanks for your service.