New to the law school world Forum

[LawStudent_DC]

-edit

[stintez]

I think you have a real good chance at all the schools you have named. Also you should at least apply to schools like NYU the worst they can say is no. Good luck.

[bk1]

You've got decent softs though they are still softs. Don't hope for engineering pulling you up too much, though I would expect a slight slight boost from it.

If you can pull a 170+ on an LSAT retake, I would suggest going for it again in October.

[LawStudent_DC]

so don't laugh.. but when you say "softs", are you just referring to everything besides the LSAT/GPA?

[czelede]

Welcome to the application world! Since LS is a numbers game, you can generally get an idea of where yo ustand by looking at the medians of each school, provided that you aren't a splitter (low GPA/high LSAT). Try this resource to get an idea as well:

http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

But anyways, let's look at the breakdown of the schools you mentioned:

Duke: You are below the 25% for GPA and at the 75% for LSAT. This means that you have a fairly decent shot (you're above the median for LSAT) but Duke tends to be GPA heavy, so its hard to tell. LSP has you at a "Deny".
EDIT: I misread, you are actually at the 25% for the LSAT...so Duke is pretty much out.

Georgetown: above the 25% but below the median for GPA, at the 25% for LSAT. You are at least at the 25% for both, so you have a slightly better shot (imo). LSP has you at a "Weak Consider".

George Washington: above the 25% but below the median for GPA (less below that Georgetown though), close to the 75% for LSAT. Your chances are getting better. LSP now has you at a "Consider"

Fordham : above the 25% and very close to the median for GPA, at the 75% LSAT. Chances are even better, but LSP has you at a "Consider" still.

NC: above the 25%, close to the median for GPA, and above the 75% LSAT by 3 points - I would bet on an acceptance here. LSP has you at a "Strong Consider".


I would predict that you are WL/In at GWU, Fordham, and NC, with NC being your best bet. Georgetown is surprisingly protective of their numbers despite being at the bottom of the T14. If you have T14 aspirations I would shoot an app over at Cornell (you're at the 25% LSAT and close to the 75%, it is also your only LSP "Consider" in the T14). Unfortunately, you don't have any "Strong Consider"s or "Admit"s anywhere in the T25, but I think you have a decent shot at a handful of schools in the T14-T25 range if you put together a strong application. You have a good shot at a good amount in the T25 onwards (Tier 1 of course).

As for the Aerospace background, the higher the school is in rank the less they care about how difficult your major was (although most say they will take it into account) if your numbers aren't up to par. It helps in that it makes you a less common applicant, so it gives them a reason to at least give your application a look - but what helps more is strong numbers, of course. I've noticed that schools with a notoriously rigorous and well known engineering programs will tend to give you a little more slack than others. Michigan (9), Northwestern (11) and UIUC (21) are all very engineering friendly, although your numbers are a bit out of range for Michigan (you're either below or at the bottom of the 25% for both GPA and LSAT) and 2 years of WE is generally required for NW (although you are a "Weak Consider" on numbers alone), There is a chance that you might be able to get some money out of UIUC, however - they love engineers and are less GPA heavy than some of their peer T25 schools. UIUC remains to be probably your safest shot at the T25.

I would advise you to retake the LSAT if you can though. One of the boosts an engineering background is supposed to give LS applicants is the training in analytical thinking; you can prove this to adcomms most easily with a (more) solid LSAt score.

[sumus romani]

A lot of us here at TLS tend to think that admissions is numbers-oriented, with little room for other factors. So, a lot of us will say that your numbers are too low for the schools to which you are applying. That's not to suggest that you shouldn't apply to the schools you mention. But also apply to target schools were you meet the median LSAT and GPA and some safeties too. Also, apply to Cornell for sure.

Lastly, why is your username not 'rudy'?

[czelede]

so don't laugh.. but when you say "softs", are you just referring to everything besides the LSAT/GPA?

Yes. Personal statement, extracurriculars, work experience, letters of recommendation, etc. Softs are usually used as tie-breakers, however, and the general consensus is that LSAT>GPA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Softs. Admissions remains to be very numbers based in the end, unfortunately.

[sumus romani]

Welcome to the application world! Since LS is a numbers game, you can generally get an idea of where yo ustand by looking at the medians of each school, provided that you aren't a splitter (low GPA/high LSAT). Try this resource to get an idea as well:

http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

But anyways, let's look at the breakdown of the schools you mentioned:

Duke: You are below the 25% for GPA and at the 75% for LSAT. This means that you have a fairly decent shot (you're above the median for LSAT) but Duke tends to be GPA heavy, so its hard to tell. LSP has you at a "Deny".

Georgetown: above the 25% but below the median for GPA, at the 25% for LSAT. You are at least at the 25% for both, so you have a slightly better shot (imo). LSP has you at a "Weak Consider".

George Washington: above the 25% but below the median for GPA (less below that Georgetown though), close to the 75% for LSAT. Your chances are getting better. LSP now has you at a "Consider"

Fordham : above the 25% and very close to the median for GPA, at the 75% LSAT. Chances are even better, but LSP has you at a "Consider" still.

NC: above the 25%, close to the median for GPA, and above the 75% LSAT by 3 points - I would bet on an acceptance here. LSP has you at a "Strong Consider".


I would predict that you are WL/In at GWU, Fordham, and NC, with NC being your best bet. Georgetown is surprisingly protective of their numbers despite being at the bottom of the T14. If you have T14 aspirations I would shoot an app over at Cornell (you're at the 25% LSAT and close to the 75%, it is also your only LSP "Consider" in the T14). Unfortunately, you don't have any "Strong Consider"s or "Admit"s anywhere in the T25, but I think you have a decent shot at a handful of schools in the T14-T25 range if you put together a strong application. You have a good shot at a good amount in the T25 onwards (Tier 1 of course).

As for the Aerospace background, the higher the school is in rank the less they care about how difficult your major was (although most say they will take it into account) if your numbers aren't up to par. It helps in that it makes you a less common applicant, so it gives them a reason to at least give your application a look - but what helps more is are strong numbers, of course. I've noticed that schools with a notoriously rigorous and well known engineering programs will tend to give you a little more slack than others. Michigan (9), Northwestern (11) and UIUC (21) are all very engineering friendly, although your numbers are a bit out of range for Michigan (you're either below or at the bottom of the 25% for both GPA and LSAT) and 2 years of WE is generally required for NW (although you are a "Weak Consider" on numbers alone), There is a chance that you might be able to get some money out of UIUC, however - they love engineers and are less GPA heavy than some of their peer T25 schools. UIUC remains to be probably your safest shot at the T25.

I would advise you to retake the LSAT if you can though. One of the boosts an engineering background is supposed to give LS applicants is the training in analytical thinking; you can prove this to adcomms most easily with a (more) solid LSAt score.

The median LSAT that Duke reports to the ABA is 169. So, I gather that the OP is not even close to the 75th percentile.

[TommyK]

so don't laugh.. but when you say "softs", are you just referring to everything besides the LSAT/GPA?

Pretty much. Softs tend to be the aspects of your profile that cannot be quantified and are not measured by the rankings. Extracurricular, professional background, volunteer experience, major, etc. It's often used in deciding between two candidates of similar numbers. Say you have two folks who have a 3.5 gpa, and a 163-ish lsat, they would more than likely choose the one that had research experience with their professor, built shit in ecuador, was the president of undergrad studennt gov't.

[czelede]

Welcome to the application world! Since LS is a numbers game, you can generally get an idea of where yo ustand by looking at the medians of each school, provided that you aren't a splitter (low GPA/high LSAT). Try this resource to get an idea as well:

http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

But anyways, let's look at the breakdown of the schools you mentioned:

Duke: You are below the 25% for GPA and at the 75% for LSAT. This means that you have a fairly decent shot (you're above the median for LSAT) but Duke tends to be GPA heavy, so its hard to tell. LSP has you at a "Deny".

Georgetown: above the 25% but below the median for GPA, at the 25% for LSAT. You are at least at the 25% for both, so you have a slightly better shot (imo). LSP has you at a "Weak Consider".

George Washington: above the 25% but below the median for GPA (less below that Georgetown though), close to the 75% for LSAT. Your chances are getting better. LSP now has you at a "Consider"

Fordham : above the 25% and very close to the median for GPA, at the 75% LSAT. Chances are even better, but LSP has you at a "Consider" still.

NC: above the 25%, close to the median for GPA, and above the 75% LSAT by 3 points - I would bet on an acceptance here. LSP has you at a "Strong Consider".


I would predict that you are WL/In at GWU, Fordham, and NC, with NC being your best bet. Georgetown is surprisingly protective of their numbers despite being at the bottom of the T14. If you have T14 aspirations I would shoot an app over at Cornell (you're at the 25% LSAT and close to the 75%, it is also your only LSP "Consider" in the T14). Unfortunately, you don't have any "Strong Consider"s or "Admit"s anywhere in the T25, but I think you have a decent shot at a handful of schools in the T14-T25 range if you put together a strong application. You have a good shot at a good amount in the T25 onwards (Tier 1 of course).

As for the Aerospace background, the higher the school is in rank the less they care about how difficult your major was (although most say they will take it into account) if your numbers aren't up to par. It helps in that it makes you a less common applicant, so it gives them a reason to at least give your application a look - but what helps more is are strong numbers, of course. I've noticed that schools with a notoriously rigorous and well known engineering programs will tend to give you a little more slack than others. Michigan (9), Northwestern (11) and UIUC (21) are all very engineering friendly, although your numbers are a bit out of range for Michigan (you're either below or at the bottom of the 25% for both GPA and LSAT) and 2 years of WE is generally required for NW (although you are a "Weak Consider" on numbers alone), There is a chance that you might be able to get some money out of UIUC, however - they love engineers and are less GPA heavy than some of their peer T25 schools. UIUC remains to be probably your safest shot at the T25.

I would advise you to retake the LSAT if you can though. One of the boosts an engineering background is supposed to give LS applicants is the training in analytical thinking; you can prove this to adcomms most easily with a (more) solid LSAt score.

The median LSAT that Duke reports to the ABA is 169. So, I gather that the OP is not even close to the 75th percentile.

You're right; reading fail on my part. I meant to say that OP was at the 25%. That explains the LSP Deny a little better, lol.

[rdcws000]

Hello everyone, my name is Brian, and I am relatively new (read: I have not wanted to go to law school my entire life) to the law school world. I took the June LSAT and scored a 167. I have a 3.5 GPA at Notre Dame in Aerospace Engineering. I've been told that I could be competitive at Georgetown and Duke since I am in Aerospace Engineering and my GPA will be looked at differently, any truth to this? A little more about me: I am on the football team (QB) as a walk-on, and have been for 3 years now. I am a research assistant for one of my professors for the summer. Not sure what else is relevant for a law school app, but I'm sure I'll find out soon.

Some of the schools I'm looking at (since I've been told I have a chance to get in) are Duke, Georgetown, George Washington, Fordham, and NC. What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance for the help everyone.

Just out of curiosity what is your motivation for law school?

It is not a requirement that someone has wanted to be a lawyer their whole life in order to want to go, but it did make me wonder why you would get an aerospace engineering degree (I don't know how the market is for work in that area, but I'd be surprised if it's worse than the legal field) and then decide to go to law school...

Do you have a plan?

Just one more piece of advice since you said you are new to the law school idea: Do not go to law school unless you truly want to be a lawyer and/or you have a solid plan of what you will do with the degree. If you have already thought through all this, then disregard, and enjoy your journey!

[paralegal]

Your chances at Duke are very unlikely.....Duke favors high GPAs.....so you're against the odds to begin with - you'd have to have a much higher LSAT score to offset that GPA for even ED at Duke.

[czelede]

Hello everyone, my name is Brian, and I am relatively new (read: I have not wanted to go to law school my entire life) to the law school world. I took the June LSAT and scored a 167. I have a 3.5 GPA at Notre Dame in Aerospace Engineering. I've been told that I could be competitive at Georgetown and Duke since I am in Aerospace Engineering and my GPA will be looked at differently, any truth to this? A little more about me: I am on the football team (QB) as a walk-on, and have been for 3 years now. I am a research assistant for one of my professors for the summer. Not sure what else is relevant for a law school app, but I'm sure I'll find out soon.

Some of the schools I'm looking at (since I've been told I have a chance to get in) are Duke, Georgetown, George Washington, Fordham, and NC. What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance for the help everyone.

Just out of curiosity what is your motivation for law school?

It is not a requirement that someone has wanted to be a lawyer their whole life in order to want to go, but it did make me wonder why you would get an aerospace engineering degree (I don't know how the market is for work in that area, but I'd be surprised if it's worse than the legal field) and then decide to go to law school...

Do you have a plan?

Just one more piece of advice since you said you are new to the law school idea: Do not go to law school unless you truly want to be a lawyer and/or you have a solid plan of what you will do with the degree. If you have already thought through all this, then disregard, and enjoy your journey!

As an Aerospace Engineer currently in the industry, I can tell you right now that the field is hurting more than numbers let on. I graduated from a school consistently ranked in the top 5 for engineering (top 10 for Aerospace) and about half my class had to defer to graduate school because they were unable to find decent jobs. This was not grade/rank or work experience based at all. Our school also has an awesome campus recruitment system, that worked wonders for the Mechanical/EE/CS majors around, but Aerospace can be a very tricky industry because although our coursework is nearly identical to MEs, very few non Aerospace companies will take you. Of the major players in the AE/defense industry (Boeing, Lockheed, Northrup, GE Aviation, Rolls Royce, ATK, Raytheon), at least two went on hiring freezes when I graduated (May 2009). Offers were extended and then rescinded. The company I work for (one of the 7) normally intakes 100 new hires a year; last year, they hired 25.

[LawStudent_DC]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for their input, I truly do appreciate it.

rdcws, as far as why I am considering law school, it's mostly me not having the excitement that I see most of my classmates/professors/research assistants have for aerospace engineering. My father is a lawyer, so I have always been exposed to law, but also always knew that science and math were my strong points, hence the aerospace undergrad. In no way did I expect to have this change of fate in college. Nonetheless, it is what it is.

As far as retaking the LSAT, I don't think it is possible since, as I mentioned, I play football out here and we have our games on Saturdays. Even if we had an off week, I would not be able to put in the necessary time to make me confident I would score 170+ with all that a college football season brings with it.

Another line of questioning now though, does anyone see any potential of scholarship money at the schools I mentioned? To my basic understanding of the scholarship situation, the higher your numbers are relative to a school's 25th-75th, the more likely you are to get $$$.

[vanwinkle]

It might be worth your while to plan on taking an off year after graduation and retaking the LSAT then. Because the LSAT is so critical to both what schools admit you and whether they give you merit aid, retaking can increase your lifetime income and earnings potential by hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is especially true for someone who wants a shot at a T14 school like Duke or Georgetown; you might get in now on the sheer strength of a great PS given your unique circumstances, but if you don't, you should find work for a year, retake, and reapply. With a 170+ you can get into both Duke and Georgetown; a couple points higher and you might make one of the elite "Top 6" schools.

Plus if you have an interest in it you can use that off year to build up more softs, by working for a charity organization or non-profit (if you're not doing that kind of thing already). Work experience in general is considered valuable to schools since so many kids apply fresh out of UG, so doing any kind of work after graduation and being a year older would make you a more attractive candidate.

Just some food for thought.