3.49/172 - Chances next cycle with and without retake Forum

[whitman]

Hey I know I've selfishly created threads and posted a bit too much about myself lately, so I feel bad for starting another thread. I want to gather my information now, though, and probably stop my account while my applications are under consideration, just in case I've come off poorly in any of my posting.

I have decent community service and work softs, and 3.49/172 stats. I am applying next cycle.
Information pertinent to a retake: I felt under-prepared for the logic games portion and left 2 blank, plus randomly guessed on 2. I only did 6 of the "Ten Real Practice LSATs" and PT's 50-59. Throwing out one bad PT when I was exhausted, I averaged a 174 on 50-59, trending upward. If I could get to -0 on LG, I feel confident I could nail a 175+. I'd want to put a lot of time into it to make it certain, and I really just want to be done with the LSAT. Money and acceptances are more important, though.

So basically, I'm asking you to tell me:
a) if I should retake the LSAT given the schools I'm shooting for and my obvious desire for scholarship money
b) my chances (including $) at those schools without a retake (so 3.49/172), and
c) my chances (including $) at those schools with a retake, assuming I do better than 172.

Stanford
Columbia
NYU
Berkeley
Penn
Michigan
UVA
Duke
GTown
UCLA
Texas
Vanderbilt
UNC

And again, sorry for being selfish here, and I promise to reciprocate in the future when other people need advice. I'll make myself available during 1L or something.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Hey I know I've selfishly created threads and posted a bit too much about myself lately, so I feel bad for starting another thread. I want to gather my information now, though, and probably stop my account while my applications are under consideration, just in case I've come off poorly in any of my posting.

I have decent community service and work softs, and 3.49/172 stats. I am applying next cycle.
Information pertinent to a retake: I felt under-prepared for the logic games portion and left 2 blank, plus randomly guessed on 2. I only did 6 of the "Ten Real Practice LSATs" and PT's 50-59. Throwing out one bad PT when I was exhausted, I averaged a 174 on 50-59, trending upward. If I could get to -0 on LG, I feel confident I could nail a 175+. I'd want to put a lot of time into it to make it certain, and I really just want to be done with the LSAT. Money and acceptances are more important, though.

So basically, I'm asking you to tell me:
a) if I should retake the LSAT given the schools I'm shooting for and my obvious desire for scholarship money
b) my chances (including $) at those schools without a retake (so 3.49/172), and
c) my chances (including $) at those schools with a retake, assuming I do better than 172.

Stanford- Out (GPAs the problem, retake won't help)
Columbia- Out (175+ would put you in good position)
NYU- In (173+ would put you in better shape though)
Berkeley- Out (GPAs the problem, retake won't help)
Penn- either WL or In
Michigan-either WL or In
UVA-either WL or In
Duke- WL (GPAs the problem)
GTown- In
UCLA- Out (GPAs the problem)
Texas- either WL or IN
Vanderbilt- In
UNC- In

You have a chance at money at MVP. Not sure how a few more points would affect those chances. More points would probably help $$ chances at UT.

Why no Chicago or NU? Hate chicago?

[OneKnight]

OK, I'm not sure why I'm up so late - East Coast - but I'll comment

So basically, I'm asking you to tell me:
a) if I should retake the LSAT given the schools I'm shooting for and my obvious desire for scholarship money
b) my chances (including $) at those schools without a retake (so 3.49/172), and
c) my chances (including $) at those schools with a retake, assuming I do better than 172.

A) Definitely Definitely Definitely retake the LSAT. You've PT'd well in the auto-admit range for most of these schools, and a few more points (175) would likely get you into scholly range for quite a few!

B)

Stanford
Columbia
NYU
Berkeley
Penn
All = No Chance, English pig-dog!! (:P Sorry, couldn't resist the MP quote) - I mean, unless I'm missing some seriously sick softs...
OH! And if you ED at NYU/Columbia/Penn you also might shake out an acceptance, albeit without money...
---------
Michigan
UVA
Duke
GTown
All = Decent Shot, but no $$ based on GPA
ED at UVA/GTown and you have an EXCELLENT shot.
---------
UCLA
Texas
Vanderbilt
Almost certainly in at all except Vandy can be weird from time to time.
---------
UNC (are you instate? If yes, in like flint. If no, hard to tell!)

Finally C) depends entirely on how much you improve - 174/175 would probably move each category down once. 178+ means you'd almost certainly get some Columbia/NYU action or $$$ elsewhere

Final Note: Boalt is a tough one. Even with a better LSAT. They just love high GPAs so damn much (and interesting softs) that it might not really matter if you got a 180. In the past few years (according to LSN), Boalt has rejected every 180 who is below a 3.5...Likewise with Stanford, if they like you with a 172 they might not like you that much more with a 175.

My .02

[whitman]

Thanks to both of you. Excellent points.

[whitman]

Is Penn harder than it looks to get into? It seems like it'd be more in line with Michigan and UVA than NYU.

[OneKnight]

Yes, you're likely right about that one. I suppose P is about the same as M and V without Michigan or Virginia residency. On the other hand, and perhaps to revise my post, you have a better chance at Michigan than UVa or Penn because Michigan tends to like LSAT splitters like you.

[whitman]

Any other perspectives out there?

[whitman]

Just nine votes?

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Just nine votes?

If you think you can push your PT avg up to around a 176-177, the proper response is to suck it up and retake. 175+ puts you in much better position for CCN. Your chances everywhere else probably won't change drastically though.

[whitman]

Sorry for the shameless bump, but I need to start studying now if I'm going to retake in June. I won't be able to study much in May due to extenuating circumstances.

To recap: 3.5 GPA, 172 LSAT

I guessed randomly on 2 logic games questions and left 2 blank. Went through all the logic games from tests 1-39 once, didn't make it through a second time. Took about 15 real practice tests.

Americorps, strong recommendations, marathons for homelessness, strong rec's, work experience, creative writing background.

Goals: likely public interest, probably in environmental law. I am conceding HYS, obviously, am not interested in CC, and am shooting for NYU, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Berkeley, Vandy, UCLA, or Texas (or maybe GTown), and would obviously love as much money as possible.

Any new opinions out there? Should I spend a lot of time studying to maybe get a 173-177 or whatever and risk getting lower than a 172? Do I already have a shot at most of these schools and maybe with money?

[lawhawk]

Youre in at Penn on down -- apply in September and its money in the bank.

The only schools a 174+ would change are NYU and Columbia (maybe). If you think it's worth it, then retake.

warning: too high an LSAT could bring Yield Protection WLs at uva and michigan.

[whitman]

Youre in at Penn on down -- apply in September and its money in the bank.

The only schools a 174+ would change are NYU and Columbia (maybe). If you think it's worth it, then retake.

warning: too high an LSAT could bring Yield Protection WLs at uva and michigan.

Hey thanks for the response, but do you think increasing to a 174+ would just change my chances at NYU and Columbia, or could it potentially be the difference between getting into, say, UVA, and getting money at UVA? I have made shit for money the last couple of years doing service work, and I would like to get some scholarship money if possible. Sorry, I know that I can go to LSN and LSP, but there are few with my numbers on LSN, and LSP has me at a Consider at most of these schools, and I just read a thread on TLS where most people with "Consider" got waitlisted or denied.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Youre in at Penn on down -- apply in September and its money in the bank.

The only schools a 174+ would change are NYU and Columbia (maybe). If you think it's worth it, then retake.

warning: too high an LSAT could bring Yield Protection WLs at uva and michigan.

Hey thanks for the response, but do you think increasing to a 174+ would just change my chances at NYU and Columbia, or could it potentially be the difference between getting into, say, UVA, and getting money at UVA? I have made shit for money the last couple of years doing service work, and I would like to get some scholarship money if possible. Sorry, I know that I can go to LSN and LSP, but there are few with my numbers on LSN, and LSP has me at a Consider at most of these schools, and I just read a thread on TLS where most people with "Consider" got waitlisted or denied.

http://www.hourumd.com/ is your friend. Plug in range options and see how different LSAT score results compare at the same school. The downside of this site is you need to put a lot less stock in the older cycles-the last cycle or two provide a more accurate representation.

[rockchalk86]

3.5 171... Americorps as well. Check out my profile as we are very similar and you can see how my cycle went

[ughOSU]

I have similar numbers, and with a GPA in the 3.4-3.5 range it's my experience that you need a 173+ LSAT to have a decent chance at CCN (I know this is conjecture, so take it with a grain of salt). IMO it would be worth an application though. I would give up on HYS with that GPA, but if you get a 177+ you might have a chance at H.

fyi I was accepted to 3 T14s with 2 rejects and a bunch of WL.

[whitman]

Thanks guys. hourumd is odd...sometimes a point up in LSAT causes the percentage to go down - even for schools that are of high enough rank that YP shouldn't be an issue. I think I am going to not take the LSAT again, but for anyone that stumbles upon this that hasn't already kindly donated their thoughts, here is the core question:

If I am shooting for NYU, MVPB, Vandy, UCLA, and Texas, is it worth the hassle of retaking to go from 3.49/172 to potentially 3.49/172+? To clarify, I want to know if that month of studying could potentially earn me some $$$ at some of those schools.

I probably won't hear anything new, so thanks to all of you who have shared, and congratulations to those posters with similar stats who had great cycles.

[sumus romani]

I have very similar numbers to yours, but I had been out of school for quite a few years before I applied (and had done some decent stuff between graduation and then).

Of the bottom 12 of the t14, I was:

In at:
NYU, P, NW, G

WL at:
Col., Chi, M, V, D

Deny at:
S, B

Interview Request, so Withdrawl:
C

Hope this helps.

[whitman]

I have very similar numbers to yours, but I had been out of school for quite a few years before I applied (and had done some decent stuff between graduation and then).

Of the bottom 12 of the t14, I was:

In at:
NYU, P, NW, G

WL at:
Col., Chi, M, V, D

Deny at:
S, B

Interview Request, so Withdrawl:
C

Hope this helps.

Any money anywhere?

[whitman]

And thanks, too. It does help.

[rayiner]

3.5 is a difficult GPA. It's right at the border of CCN's GPA cut-offs, so even with a higher LSAT you might not get in. On the other hand, you are quite safe for Michigan/Virginia/Penn as long as your app doesn't suck.

[Z3RO]

I have a similar GPA with an LSAT in the range you're shooting for. Applied in early December. I don't really have extracurriculars, but I studied abroad, am fluent in German, and have been working for over a year. Here's how things are going for my cycle:

Harvard - reject
Columbia - hold
NYU - haven't heard (presume wait list)
Chicago - wait list
Michigan - reject
Penn - wait list
UVA - wait list

Shit's been rough. I have to think that it's the GPA. Everybody here will tell you that a 178+ LSAT gets you in almost anywhere below Stanford, but it's just not true. LSN will show you that.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

I added my cycle results to my profile. Received 20k/yr at UVA and Texas matched 15k/yr of it (and grants covered the last 5k diff).

You should have a shot at money at MVP (esp M and V). Those are probably your best shot at money in T10.

If you feel like you can raise your score by 2+ points, I say go for it. The biggest help a higher score will do is increase your shot at NYU and Columbia, the difference probably won't be as significant for everything else.