172/3.6 URM Forum

[Jacktone]

I've been lurking the site for a while. This is my first post. I'm normally not one to engage in internet forums, but I could use some feedback.

I'm having trouble figuring out what schools I should be seriously considering because I feel my situation is unique enough such that websites like Law School Predictor can't paint an accurate picture of my admission chances.

I skipped a lot of high school and instead went to a 2-year college. I then transferred to a top 25 undergrad. I completely stopped trying after I transferred because at the time I wasn't considering grad/law school and could have cared less about my gpa; thus there is a HUGE difference between my gpa from the 2-year school and my gpa from the top 25 undergrad. When the two are combined my gpa comes in around the 3.6 mark.

I've taken the lsat once and got a 172. I was a little disappointed with that score because I was consistently practicing at 175+, but I don't think I'm gonna take it again.

Racially I'm probably over 50% white (I say probably because I'm quite the mutt and in some cases it's hard to trace my family lineage). The rest of me is a mixture of Native American and Mexican. Culturally I don't have any ties to my Mexican heritage, but I am a member of a federally recognized Indian tribe.

I've been out of school for a little while already, but I'm still young because I graduated so early. I'll probably still put off applying to law school for another couple of years because the regrets I have over letting my undergrad gpa drop as an adolescent have left me cautious about returning to school until I'm confident that I've matured to the point that I can handle the commitment. In the meantime, I'm working on resume building.

Anyways, I get a huge range of opinions from my friends/fellow future law students. Some think my lsat score + ethnicity = automatic admission to HYS. Others think my gpa doesn't qualify me for a top 10 school. The range of opinions I receive varies so greatly that I'm really starting to obsess about it, and I'm hoping to find a more consistent pov here (although that's probably a ridiculous thing to ask of the internet).

So I guess my questions are:

How do law schools handle disparities in gpa for undergraduates who transferred?

And of course, what are my chances?

[jks289]

I've been lurking the site for a while. This is my first post. I'm normally not one to engage in internet forums, but I could use some feedback.

I'm having trouble figuring out what schools I should be seriously considering because I feel my situation is unique enough such that websites like Law School Predictor can't paint an accurate picture of my admission chances.

I skipped a lot of high school and instead went to a 2-year college. I then transferred to a top 25 undergrad. I completely stopped trying after I transferred because at the time I wasn't considering grad/law school and could have cared less about my gpa; thus there is a HUGE difference between my gpa from the 2-year school and my gpa from the top 25 undergrad. When the two are combined my gpa comes in around the 3.6 mark.

I've taken the lsat once and got a 172. I was a little disappointed with that score because I was consistently practicing at 175+, but I don't think I'm gonna take it again.

Racially I'm probably over 50% white (I say probably because I'm quite the mutt and in some cases it's hard to trace my family lineage). The rest of me is a mixture of Native American and Mexican. Culturally I don't have any ties to my Mexican heritage, but I am a member of a federally recognized Indian tribe.

I've been out of school for a little while already, but I'm still young because I graduated so early. I'll probably still put off applying to law school for another couple of years because the regrets I have over letting my undergrad gpa drop as an adolescent have left me cautious about returning to school until I'm confident that I've matured to the point that I can handle the commitment. In the meantime, I'm working on resume building.

Anyways, I get a huge range of opinions from my friends/fellow future law students. Some think my lsat score + ethnicity = automatic admission to HYS. Others think my gpa doesn't qualify me for a top 10 school. The range of opinions I receive varies so greatly that I'm really starting to obsess about it, and I'm hoping to find a more consistent pov here (although that's probably a ridiculous thing to ask of the internet).

So I guess my questions are:

How do law schools handle disparities in gpa for undergraduates who transferred?

And of course, what are my chances?

Do you have a tribal card? If so, you are in everywhere. YHS and down. Enjoy!

[Jacktone]

Thanks for the opinion, jks289.

Just to clarify in case anyone else wants to comment, even though the percentage of Native American blood in me is relatively low, I do have a tribal enrollment card and my tribe is federally recognized.

Also, even if I am "in everywhere", I am still curious about the transfer student gpa issue.

[s0ph1e2007]

Do you have a tribal card? If so, you are in everywhere. YHS and down. Enjoy!

Most schools do not require enrollment in a Tribe. Most places appreciate it, but its definitely not required at most considering the whole state of federal Indian recognition, enrollment and sovereignty is crazy fluctuating and complex.

Good luck

edited for totally incorrect information the Mexican URM front. sorry.

[nycsoul87]

shouldn't matter

is the 3.6 gpa your lsac gpa?

I can see where Yale might say no because of the strong downward trend but you still have a decent shot.

I mean at the end of the day you are 3.6 + 172 + Native American tribal card...

You should be in CCN down and pretty good shot at Harvard and Stanford.

I feel like Yale is a ? for almost everyone.

[portena]

emphasizing your native american heritage over your mexican (which is not URM)

I was under the impression (based on what's been said on TLS a zillion times) that Mexican/Puerto Rican are the classic Hispanic URMs. What are you talking about?

[jks289]

Do you have a tribal card? If so, you are in everywhere. YHS and down. Enjoy!

They dont require a tribal card. some places appreciate it, but its definately not required considering the whole state of native american enrollment and sovereignty is crazy fluxuating and complex.

But, I would say it depends on what your gpa was at your top25 school. I'm guessing you had like a 4.0 at your 2 year and a 3.2 at your top25?
That plus a 172 will give you a chance everywhere but Yale. Get a fee waiver at Yale and apply there anyways though, maybe you'll rock their socks with your PS.

Oh and write a diversity statement explaining your 'muttness' they love that, and emphasizing your native american heritage over your mexican (which is not URM) is important (and also prudent because of your background)

Retaking the LSAT and getting a 176 or something similar though would almost auto admit you to Harvard and give you a better chance at Yale.

Good luck

I thought that they were pretty wary of the "Oh, I'm 1/16 native american" claims and wanted documentation of some sort. Obviously OP is still URM, but NA is the golden ticket by most accounts. I was pointing out that if he met the NA criteria the rest of the dicussion was moot.

[Jacktone]

shouldn't matter

is the 3.6 gpa your lsac gpa?

I can see where Yale might say no because of the strong downward trend but you still have a decent shot.

I mean at the end of the day you are 3.6 + 172 + Native American tribal card...

You should be in CCN down and pretty good shot at Harvard and Stanford.

I feel like Yale is a ? for almost everyone.

I just submitted my transcripts to lsac, so I don't yet know what my official lsac gpa will come in at. Is there anything screwy that can happen that would make my lsac gpa drastically different from what I expect? If anything I expect the official gpa to be on the higher side of 3.6 because I took more units at my 2-year then I did at the top25 undergrad. Also, a good handful of the units from the top 25 were taken pass/no pass (which of course could be a whole different issue when they're reviewing my application, but which will also probably make my 3.6 estimate conservative).

[jks289]

shouldn't matter

is the 3.6 gpa your lsac gpa?

I can see where Yale might say no because of the strong downward trend but you still have a decent shot.

I mean at the end of the day you are 3.6 + 172 + Native American tribal card...

You should be in CCN down and pretty good shot at Harvard and Stanford.

I feel like Yale is a ? for almost everyone.

I just submitted my transcripts to lsac, so I don't yet know what my official lsac gpa will come in at. Is there anything screwy that can happen that would make my lsac gpa drastically different from what I expect? If anything I expect the official gpa to be on the higher side of 3.6 because I took more units at my 2-year then I did at the top25 undergrad. Also, a good handful of the units from the top 25 were taken pass/no pass (which of course could be a whole different issue when they're reviewing my application, but which will also probably make my 3.6 estimate conservative).

As long as there are no "no pass" grades you are fine. If you have multiple "no pass" they count as F's so you might be in trouble. Is there a reason you are applying so late? If you just submitted transcripts can you meet the application deadlines for T14 schools.

[Jacktone]

As long as there are no "no pass" grades you are fine. If you have multiple "no pass" they count as F's so you might be in trouble. Is there a reason you are applying so late? If you just submitted transcripts can you meet the application deadlines for T14 schools.

I received a "pass" in all the courses. They do, however, reveal how little I was trying because I saved all of my allowed "pass/no pass" courses until my last semester, the transcript of which reads as 4 "passes" and an A (which, ironically, gives me a 4.0 my final semester).

In terms of why I'm waiting another year or two before applying? Well as I alluded to before, my poor performance in my last two years of undergrad was due to my youth. Even though academically I was able to handle my extremely accelerated placement, I was still so young that I did not know who I was as a person and thus did not know what I wanted to achieve. Further, even though I now have a much better grasp of those things, if I had not skipped most of high school I would currently still be an undergraduate, which makes me feel that giving myself another couple more years to mature as a person would be even more beneficial before tackling the daunting challenges of a top law school. The only reason I posed this question now is because it has only been in the last 4 months that I have become convinced I should pursue a legal career.

Similarly, one of the major factors that has finally convinced me to pursue a legal career is recent unrest and potential miscarriages of justice within my own tribe's government. Thus, I am considering practicing Indian law after I graduate, and I want to use the next two years to work in the field, maybe even on a national level, so as to have a better idea of what that specific practice of law would entail before heading down a path that could be difficult to reverse. Plus, because I lacked direction for the past two years, outside of my high lsat score I have not achieved anything post-college that I feel will be viewed as impressive. I figure that good work within the field of Indian law would only help to show that I am determined to reverse the downward, lackadaisical trend that I began in college.

I suppose that was probably more info than you were looking for regarding why I've chosen not to apply this year. One of the reason's I avoid internet interaction is that I have trouble keeping my writing concise :/

[vanwinkle]

Some schools do require a tribal registration card to establish Native American status. Also, if you claim both Native American and Mexican you're almost certainly getting a huge boost for it.

LSAC takes all your hours accrued at all undergraduate institutions (up until receipt of your first bachelor's degree, at which point they stop counting) and generates a single cumulative overall GPA for you. Classes that are taken "pass/no pass" or "pass/fail" will not affect your GPA if you passed them, though I think a fail will count as a 0.

I would highly recommend you apply to the entire T14 to keep your options open, or at least all the T14 schools in locations you'd even consider living, but you should get acceptances from most of them and $$$ from several. Good luck.

[jks289]

As long as there are no "no pass" grades you are fine. If you have multiple "no pass" they count as F's so you might be in trouble. Is there a reason you are applying so late? If you just submitted transcripts can you meet the application deadlines for T14 schools.

I received a "pass" in all the courses. They do, however, reveal how little I was trying because I saved all of my allowed "pass/no pass" courses until my last semester, the transcript of which reads as 4 "passes" and an A (which, ironically, gives me a 4.0 my final semester).

In terms of why I'm waiting another year or two before applying? Well as I alluded to before, my poor performance in my last two years of undergrad was due to my youth. Even though academically I was able to handle my extremely accelerated placement, I was still so young that I did not know who I was as a person and thus did not know what I wanted to achieve. Further, even though I now have a much better grasp of those things, if I had not skipped most of high school I would currently still be an undergraduate, which makes me feel that giving myself another couple more years to mature as a person would be even more beneficial before tackling the daunting challenges of a top law school. The only reason I posed this question now is because it has only been in the last 4 months that I have become convinced I should pursue a legal career.

Similarly, one of the major factors that has finally convinced me to pursue a legal career is recent unrest and potential miscarriages of justice within my own tribe's government. Thus, I am considering practicing Indian law after I graduate, and I want to use the next two years to work in the field, maybe even on a national level, so as to have a better idea of what that specific practice of law would entail before heading down a path that could be difficult to reverse. Plus, because I lacked direction for the past two years, outside of my high lsat score I have not achieved anything post-college that I feel will be viewed as impressive. I figure that good work within the field of Indian law would only help to show that I am determined to reverse the downward, lackadaisical trend that I began in college.

I suppose that was probably more info than you were looking for regarding why I've chosen not to apply this year. One of the reason's I avoid internet interaction is that I have trouble keeping my writing concise :/

Sorry, I thought you were asking about applying for this cycle, hence the "so late" question. Sounds like you have it pretty figured out. DOn't worry about any of the GPA stuff, you have golden numbers for a NA URM. You should apply everywhere. HYS are typically hard to predict (Y more so) but you'll be in a large number of excellent schools probably with substaintial money offers,

[Kiersten1985]

emphasizing your native american heritage over your mexican (which is not URM)

I was under the impression (based on what's been said on TLS a zillion times) that Mexican/Puerto Rican are the classic Hispanic URMs. What are you talking about?

Yeah, those are the ONLY two Hispanic URMS.

OP - I think you'll be A-OK with CLS on down as long as you're PS, DS and LORS are good. And kudos for recognizing that you're not mature enough to go back to school just yet. I think a lot of people jump into something as serious as law school without doing the much-needed self-reflection. I'm sure you have a bright future ahead.

[lsatgenius]

fwiw, i just happened to be looking on the tls stats page, and anecdotally i noticed that most people with those numbers got into columbia, but not berkeley, harvard, or yale. i would assume that since you are urm, your chances at berkeley, harvard, and yale are a lot better.