So if I'm not interested in Big Law... Forum

[JimHalpert]

Hi all.

I'm a second semester junior at a t25 undergrad. I have a 3.63 GPA, which may increase slightly since most of my difficult requirements are behind me. I haven't taken the lsat yet, but have been practicing for about a month now. Practice tests range from 162-168 with a long way to go until June. Softs are pretty typical, fyi.

I don't want Big Law. I would much rather graduate with less/no debt and have the freedom to work in a DA office, smaller firm, etc. The lifestyle just doesn't appeal to me. I'm limiting my choices to east coast schools. Assuming I don't blow the LSAT out of the water, far exceeding my current practice trends, where can I expect to receive a solid merit aid with a respectable name? (Note- If I get a huge score, I would consider t14, but honestly, I don't see my career goals changing.)

[Pennsylvania Resident]

-Villanova? (very interested)
-Temple?
-Fordham? (doubt it, though)
-GW? (again, doubt it)
-Cornell (stretch for acceptance yet alone $)

Any others?

Thanks.
-Also, I've stalked this site for far too long without having a substantive post. Hopefully this isn't a slippery slope towards never straying from the forum at all.

[twert]

i think temple would be a very good option for you. cheap tuition and if you get an lsat in your practice range they should give you money

[nealric]

Come back when you have a real LSAT score 162-168 is a HUGE range.

[JimHalpert]

Come back when you have a real LSAT score 162-168 is a HUGE range.

You are right. I forgot to mention I was also curious as to what score could earn me money at these schools.

[pjo]

def. add Pitt, in state residency plus you'll prob get scholarship

[JimHalpert]

Anyone familiar with Villanova in regards to merit aid?

[vandalvideo]

In my opinion, you should try for a school like Alabama, Lewis and Clark and Tulane which practically dominate their respective states.

[JimHalpert]

In my opinion, you should try for a school like Alabama, Lewis and Clark and Tulane which practically dominate their respective states.

Certainly a good idea in theory, although I definitely want to be near family, so I'm pretty set on the East Coast.

[vanwinkle]

Prestige and alumni networks matter a lot for PI work just like they do for BigLaw. I got an internship over this winter break with the NYC public defender because the guy I was interning with was a graduate of my law school. I may have made a connection there that will help me get a summer internship and possibly a job offer out of it, who knows, but even if I don't there are other connections my school will be able to help me make.

I'm going to a T14 because I want the best PI options when I graduate. I have no interest in BigLaw, but a lot of T14s have great PI options too. Penn has a really awesome public service center and would help place you into Philly with internships and clinics while you're still in school. By the time you graduate you should have plenty of connections to get the best PI jobs in the city when you graduate. (Going to Penn will mean a 170+ LSAT, so work your ass off and go for the gold!)

Look up IBR. T14+IBR = far better options than going to a lower-ranked school. I'm taking on $150K in debt, but thanks to IBR I won't have to pay most of it back ever.

[Aeroplane]

Prestige and alumni networks matter a lot for PI work just like they do for BigLaw. I got an internship over this winter break with the NYC public defender because the guy I was interning with was a graduate of my law school. I may have made a connection there that will help me get a summer internship and possibly a job offer out of it, who knows, but even if I don't there are other connections my school will be able to help me make.

I'm going to a T14 because I want the best PI options when I graduate. I have no interest in BigLaw, but a lot of T14s have great PI options too. Penn has a really awesome public service center and would help place you into Philly with internships and clinics while you're still in school. By the time you graduate you should have plenty of connections to get the best PI jobs in the city when you graduate. (Going to Penn will mean a 170+ LSAT, so work your ass off and go for the gold!)

Look up IBR. T14+IBR = far better options than going to a lower-ranked school. I'm taking on $150K in debt, but thanks to IBR I won't have to pay most of it back ever.

1) Not everyone who wants to do PI has their heart set on "prestigious" PI, and going to T14 is massive overkill for many, if not most, PI positions in the country.

2) OP isn't exclusively focused on PI but wants the "freedom to work in a DA office, smaller firm". The latter is not PI, and locking yourself into 10 years of PI commitment enforced by massive debt hanging over your head seems like the opposite of freedom to me.

OP - IMO unless you have your heart set on some sort of "fancy PI," or PI in a very competitive market like NYC, minimal debt at a non-T14 is your best bet. You've got the right idea.

[Kohinoor]

Hi all.

I'm a second semester junior at a t25 undergrad. I have a 3.63 GPA, which may increase slightly since most of my difficult requirements are behind me. I haven't taken the lsat yet, but have been practicing for about a month now. Practice tests range from 162-168 with a long way to go until June. Softs are pretty typical, fyi.

I don't want Big Law. I would much rather graduate with less/no debt and have the freedom to work in a DA office, smaller firm, etc. The lifestyle just doesn't appeal to me. I'm limiting my choices to east coast schools. Assuming I don't blow the LSAT out of the water, far exceeding my current practice trends, where can I expect to receive a solid merit aid with a respectable name? (Note- If I get a huge score, I would consider t14, but honestly, I don't see my career goals changing.)

[Pennsylvania Resident]

-Villanova? (very interested)
-Temple?
-Fordham? (doubt it, though)
-GW? (again, doubt it)
-Cornell (stretch for acceptance yet alone $)

Any others?

Thanks.
-Also, I've stalked this site for far too long without having a substantive post. Hopefully this isn't a slippery slope towards never straying from the forum at all.

Goddamnit.

[vanwinkle]

1) Not everyone who wants to do PI has their heart set on "prestigious" PI, and going to T14 is massive overkill for many, if not most, PI positions in the country.

Hiring has gotten a lot more competitive everywhere ITE. I didn't say he needed to do that for "prestigious" PI, I said he needed to do it for the best chance at the best PI jobs. That's going to include working in the Philly DA's office and such things. He did say he wants that, and being from Penn will help there enormously if he chooses to shoot that high.

2) OP isn't exclusively focused on PI but wants the "freedom to work in a DA office, smaller firm". The latter is not PI, and locking yourself into 10 years of PI commitment enforced by massive debt hanging over your head seems like the opposite of freedom to me.

With IBR the massive debt isn't hanging over your head anymore. Actually the payments would be less than the non-IBR payments on the loans you'd take out for COL while attending a lesser school on a full-tuition scholarship. And after 10 years it goes away, if you're doing PI work.

Going to Penn will also help him enormously at getting work at a law firm, even one outside the NLJ250. With how much more competitive jobs are, a lot of law firms are only hiring new associates from T14s right now. You can go to a lesser school like Temple, but even if you finish first in your class there, it's no guarantee you'll be able to get a job with that degree right now.

OP - IMO unless you have your heart set on some sort of "fancy PI," or PI in a very competitive market like NYC, minimal debt at a non-T14 is your best bet. You've got the right idea.

This "fancy PI" thing is bullshit. PI is competitive and if you want to move on from PI work to a law firm you'd better be doing something pretty important, and those jobs are going to be competitive to get right out of law school.

If he wants to work in a DA's office and he wants to work in a major city, he's still going to need a solid degree and connections. Going to a T14 like Penn will solidly give him both. If he goes into that line of work after graduating, staying there for 10 years won't be that difficult, and then he's still debt-free and has experience at one of the larger and more respected DA's offices that he could use to switch to doing litigation at a law firm.

Yeah, sure, he could go to Temple, graduate in the middle or maybe top third of his class, get a job for the Scranton PA's office, be unhappy there because it's not as big-city as he hoped for, and still be $60K in debt from having to take loans for COL even if he got a full-tuition scholarship (which isn't guaranteed, last year I only got a half-tuition scholarship from Temple and I had full-tuition offers from much higher-ranked schools, like WUSTL) which he has to work for years on a low salary to pay off. Then with that experience he can go... not too far, since neither his Temple degree nor his Scranton experience will look good to law firms shopping for an experienced litigator to handle major cases.

OP, you have to make this decision for yourself, but ITE you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to not aim for Penn and try to get an acceptance there. You've got plenty of time to bring your LSAT up, I was stuck in the mid-160s for a couple months before I finally broke through and was consistently hitting 170s, and got 170 on the real LSAT. Kick ass, and then try to get the best degree you possibly can. If you think about this as an investment, you want to invest in what assures you the best possible chance of a good return on your investment, and that really means aiming as high as possible ITE.

I'm not saying you can't be happy at a lower-ranked school like Temple, but I am saying that you will have much, much better chances of finding the work you really want to do graduating from a school like Penn, and having that degree will continue to help you even beyond your first job.

[JimHalpert]

Hi all.

I'm a second semester junior at a t25 undergrad. I have a 3.63 GPA, which may increase slightly since most of my difficult requirements are behind me. I haven't taken the lsat yet, but have been practicing for about a month now. Practice tests range from 162-168 with a long way to go until June. Softs are pretty typical, fyi.

I don't want Big Law. I would much rather graduate with less/no debt and have the freedom to work in a DA office, smaller firm, etc. The lifestyle just doesn't appeal to me. I'm limiting my choices to east coast schools. Assuming I don't blow the LSAT out of the water, far exceeding my current practice trends, where can I expect to receive a solid merit aid with a respectable name? (Note- If I get a huge score, I would consider t14, but honestly, I don't see my career goals changing.)

[Pennsylvania Resident]

-Villanova? (very interested)
-Temple?
-Fordham? (doubt it, though)
-GW? (again, doubt it)
-Cornell (stretch for acceptance yet alone $)

Any others?

Thanks.
-Also, I've stalked this site for far too long without having a substantive post. Hopefully this isn't a slippery slope towards never straying from the forum at all.

Goddamnit.

HA! Care to elaborate?

[Aeroplane]

vanwinkle - without going through your whole post, it seems like you are imputing desires to the OP significantly beyond those expressed ITT and ignoring/downplaying the "freedom" aspect since OP hasn't evinced a full-on commitment to 10 years of PI. OP is the best judge of the truth of both of my beliefs. If I'm incorrect, then your advice might be better.

[JimHalpert]

1) Not everyone who wants to do PI has their heart set on "prestigious" PI, and going to T14 is massive overkill for many, if not most, PI positions in the country.

Hiring has gotten a lot more competitive everywhere ITE. I didn't say he needed to do that for "prestigious" PI, I said he needed to do it for the best chance at the best PI jobs. That's going to include working in the Philly DA's office and such things. He did say he wants that, and being from Penn will help there enormously if he chooses to shoot that high.

2) OP isn't exclusively focused on PI but wants the "freedom to work in a DA office, smaller firm". The latter is not PI, and locking yourself into 10 years of PI commitment enforced by massive debt hanging over your head seems like the opposite of freedom to me.

With IBR the massive debt isn't hanging over your head anymore. Actually the payments would be less than the non-IBR payments on the loans you'd take out for COL while attending a lesser school on a full-tuition scholarship. And after 10 years it goes away, if you're doing PI work.

Going to Penn will also help him enormously at getting work at a law firm, even one outside the NLJ250. With how much more competitive jobs are, a lot of law firms are only hiring new associates from T14s right now. You can go to a lesser school like Temple, but even if you finish first in your class there, it's no guarantee you'll be able to get a job with that degree right now.

OP - IMO unless you have your heart set on some sort of "fancy PI," or PI in a very competitive market like NYC, minimal debt at a non-T14 is your best bet. You've got the right idea.

This "fancy PI" thing is bullshit. PI is competitive and if you want to move on from PI work to a law firm you'd better be doing something pretty important, and those jobs are going to be competitive to get right out of law school.

If he wants to work in a DA's office and he wants to work in a major city, he's still going to need a solid degree and connections. Going to a T14 like Penn will solidly give him both. If he goes into that line of work after graduating, staying there for 10 years won't be that difficult, and then he's still debt-free and has experience at one of the larger and more respected DA's offices that he could use to switch to doing litigation at a law firm.

Yeah, sure, he could go to Temple, graduate in the middle or maybe top third of his class, get a job for the Scranton PA's office, be unhappy there because it's not as big-city as he hoped for, and still be $60K in debt from having to take loans for COL even if he got a full-tuition scholarship (which isn't guaranteed, last year I only got a half-tuition scholarship from Temple and I had full-tuition offers from much higher-ranked schools, like WUSTL) which he has to work for years on a low salary to pay off. Then with that experience he can go... not too far, since neither his Temple degree nor his Scranton experience will look good to law firms shopping for an experienced litigator to handle major cases.

OP, you have to make this decision for yourself, but ITE you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to not aim for Penn and try to get an acceptance there. You've got plenty of time to bring your LSAT up, I was stuck in the mid-160s for a couple months before I finally broke through and was consistently hitting 170s, and got 170 on the real LSAT. Kick ass, and then try to get the best degree you possibly can. If you think about this as an investment, you want to invest in what assures you the best possible chance of a good return on your investment, and that really means aiming as high as possible ITE.

I'm not saying you can't be happy at a lower-ranked school like Temple, but I am saying that you will have much, much better chances of finding the work you really want to do graduating from a school like Penn, and having that degree will continue to help you even beyond your first job.

Wow. Thanks a lot for the thoughtful response! It's certainly an interesting decision. I guess the best thing I can do is focus on working as hard as possible on the LSAT and go from there. If it gets me in to a t14, then great. If not, maybe debt-free is the way to go.

[vanwinkle]

vanwinkle - without going through your whole post, it seems like you are imputing desires to the OP significantly beyond those expressed ITT and ignoring/downplaying the "freedom" aspect since OP hasn't evinced a full-on commitment to 10 years of PI. OP is the best judge of the truth of both of my beliefs. If I'm incorrect, then your advice might be better.

He doesn't have to commit to 10 years of PI to enjoy the benefits of IBR. It'll still manage his loan repayments for him, and if he ends up going to a law firm he'll be making more than he would in PI anyway. The debt will hurt, but really, with IBR he won't be paying much (if any) more than he would on just the loans he holds to pay COL for a full-ride. That debt will hurt too.

The thing is, you're taking out at least $60K in loans no matter what, even if you get a full-tuition scholarship. At that point you're borrowing so much money either way that you have to consider your post-graduation employment options, and I contend that whether he wants to go to a law firm or PI work, especially PI work that would let him move back to a law firm if that's what he ends up working, a T14 degree will actually be a worthwhile investment to consider.

I'm not trying to say "go to Penn". I am trying to say "shoot for Penn so you can apply there and have it in your bag of options". Once he's got a Penn acceptance, if he can get one, he can debate whether or not he really wants that over what else he gets, and there are enough very strong positives to going to Penn that he needs to make sure he keeps it on his radar.

If he can't get into Penn, I'd still say go ahead and go take a full ride somewhere else, since it's the best option he has and it gives him a way in, but I think his options are just that much greater with Penn that he needs to focus on Penn more than he is.

[Aeroplane]

^^ I read your initial post as a "definitely go T14 if you can" but if it's just an option to have and consider, then I don't disagree. I read smaller firm as including not just a non-market paying firm, but also as true small-firm which would pay a salary similar to PI but w/o the IBR benefit. I also didn't see where he said that being in a major city was a priority (which would make a small-town DA/PD job acceptable), although I could've missed it. If it is, then that's a different story.

[articulably suspect]

Prestige and alumni networks matter a lot for PI work just like they do for BigLaw. I got an internship over this winter break with the NYC public defender because the guy I was interning with was a graduate of my law school. I may have made a connection there that will help me get a summer internship and possibly a job offer out of it, who knows, but even if I don't there are other connections my school will be able to help me make.

I'm going to a T14 because I want the best PI options when I graduate. I have no interest in BigLaw, but a lot of T14s have great PI options too. Penn has a really awesome public service center and would help place you into Philly with internships and clinics while you're still in school. By the time you graduate you should have plenty of connections to get the best PI jobs in the city when you graduate. (Going to Penn will mean a 170+ LSAT, so work your ass off and go for the gold!)

Look up IBR. T14+IBR = far better options than going to a lower-ranked school. I'm taking on $150K in debt, but thanks to IBR I won't have to pay most of it back ever.

I think that prestige, in general, is nowhere near as vital to acquiring PI internships/employment as it is in Biglaw. Certain PI internships/positions seem to be more prestige conscious(ie ACLU, Manhattan DA, USAO, etc.) In general though, prestige of school, not such a big deal for PI based on my experience and research.

[JimHalpert]

^^ I read your initial post as a "definitely go T14 if you can" but if it's just an option to have and consider, then I don't disagree. I read smaller firm as including not just a non-market paying firm, but also as true small-firm which would pay a salary similar to PI but w/o the IBR benefit. I also didn't see where he said that being in a major city was a priority (which would make a small-town DA/PD job acceptable), although I could've missed it. If it is, then that's a different story.

I should have specified...being in a major city is definitely not a major priority, and small town DA/PD job is acceptable depending on location, comfort level (read: golf courses and ski slopes nearby), etc. I can handle big city life while pursuing my JD, but will most likely want a more suburban lifestyle soon after (not necessarily eliminating urban jobs-would just add a commute to my mornings)

[vanwinkle]

^^ I read your initial post as a "definitely go T14 if you can" but if it's just an option to have and consider, then I don't disagree. I read smaller firm as including not just a non-market paying firm, but also as true small-firm which would pay a salary similar to PI but w/o the IBR benefit. I also didn't see where he said that being in a major city was a priority (which would make a small-town DA/PD job acceptable), although I could've missed it. If it is, then that's a different story.

Well, I just kind of went into the big-town/small-town thing because he kind of waffled on whether he wants to do DA or law firm, and usually the well-paying law firms (even the boutique and smaller ones) do care about your degree and where your experience is from to at least some extent. Having a prestigious degree and working in a bigger city would both be things on his resume that would help him find law firm jobs that did pay well if he didn't want to do PI anymore.

Essentially when someone is that vague I go straight to "keeping your options open" and what that requires. My brain dives into these options without me stopping and explaining how I get there sometimes. Sorry for not being clearer from the beginning.

[vanwinkle]

I should have specified...being in a major city is definitely not a major priority, and small town DA/PD job is acceptable depending on location, comfort level (read: golf courses and ski slopes nearby), etc. I can handle big city life while pursuing my JD, but will most likely want a more suburban lifestyle soon after (not necessarily eliminating urban jobs-would just add a commute to my mornings)

If you really think you'd be happy with something in a smaller town, like working for the Scranton DA's office (something I picked because I know it as a smaller PA city from having family there, without noticing your name/tar at all, haha) then you might really end up being happy with a full-tuition scholarship at a lesser PA school. It's possible to do that much more easily with a lower T1/T2 school than it is to break into the really big markets that get the attention and prestige (NYC/Philly/etc.)

However, you don't know who if any will give you a scholarship that large, and I maintain that shooting big and trying at least for the T14 acceptance is the way to go because you never know what might come of it or if you'll change your mind.

[articulably suspect]

vanwinkle - without going through your whole post, it seems like you are imputing desires to the OP significantly beyond those expressed ITT and ignoring/downplaying the "freedom" aspect since OP hasn't evinced a full-on commitment to 10 years of PI. OP is the best judge of the truth of both of my beliefs. If I'm incorrect, then your advice might be better.

He doesn't have to commit to 10 years of PI to enjoy the benefits of IBR. It'll still manage his loan repayments for him, and if he ends up going to a law firm he'll be making more than he would in PI anyway. The debt will hurt, but really, with IBR he won't be paying much (if any) more than he would on just the loans he holds to pay COL for a full-ride. That debt will hurt too.

The thing is, you're taking out at least $60K in loans no matter what, even if you get a full-tuition scholarship. At that point you're borrowing so much money either way that you have to consider your post-graduation employment options, and I contend that whether he wants to go to a law firm or PI work, especially PI work that would let him move back to a law firm if that's what he ends up working, a T14 degree will actually be a worthwhile investment to consider.

I'm not trying to say "go to Penn". I am trying to say "shoot for Penn so you can apply there and have it in your bag of options". Once he's got a Penn acceptance, if he can get one, he can debate whether or not he really wants that over what else he gets, and there are enough very strong positives to going to Penn that he needs to make sure he keeps it on his radar.

If he can't get into Penn, I'd still say go ahead and go take a full ride somewhere else, since it's the best option he has and it gives him a way in, but I think his options are just that much greater with Penn that he needs to focus on Penn more than he is.

You would get stuck making those 10yr loan repayments without the benefit of IBR keeping those payments low. Since it's impossible to know what ones salary would be after transitioning to the private sector, that could be devastating. Making mid 100K, repayment may not be a problem, but there aren't any guarantees.

[vanwinkle]

You would get stuck making those 10yr loan repayments without the benefit of IBR keeping those payments low. Since it's impossible to know what ones salary would be after transitioning to the private sector, that could be devastating. Making mid 100K, repayment may not be a problem, but there aren't any guarantees.

No, there aren't any guarantees, but in that case if he couldn't find something high-paying in the private sector he could just ride out the 10 years in the job he had before moving. He'd have the option to keep looking, though.

If you want guarantees, law school is not the place for you anyway, unless you can squeeze a full tuition plus COL stipend out of someone. Otherwise you're still taking on a fairly large chunk of debt, and these days, even in the T14 you can fail to find work if you do badly enough.

[articulably suspect]

You would get stuck making those 10yr loan repayments without the benefit of IBR keeping those payments low. Since it's impossible to know what ones salary would be after transitioning to the private sector, that could be devastating. Making mid 100K, repayment may not be a problem, but there aren't any guarantees.

No, there aren't any guarantees, but in that case if he couldn't find something high-paying in the private sector he could just ride out the 10 years in the job he had before moving. He'd have the option to keep looking, though.

If you want guarantees, law school is not the place for you anyway, unless you can squeeze a full tuition plus COL stipend out of someone. Otherwise you're still taking on a fairly large chunk of debt, and these days, even in the T14 you can fail to find work if you do badly enough.

True, I guess my point is don't opt for the IBR 10yr repayment plan assuming you can move out of the public sector for a private sector position that pays well enough, so you can make those payments(see don't attend a T2 assuming that you will be able to transfer to a T14 after 1L). Basically, plan on staying there for those 10 yrs.