2.65, want to go to T-14, T-20 school, softs? Forum

[Rigo]

I find it hard to believe I am COMPLETELY out of the running for a decent school that will lead me to have a good job (not necessarily an acceptance to Harvard a job with a top law firm starting at over 150k per year). There's students I know at the University of Washington, Seattle University and other regional schools that are doing great.

Nobody is saying you're completely out of the running...just that you have a steep uphill battle at getting accepted into a decent* school because of your bad GPA. The average Cooley student did a lot better than you did in undergrad. Think on that.
It is possible though! However, you face a 1000x steeper hill of getting enough money once admitted to make law school worthwhile. It is possible!

*I'm not even going to get into a debate on whether both the schools you listed are decent or not, just know that it is very debatable.

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm gonna do some more research.

Stop doing research and go study. You slacked off in undergrad so there is a strong presumption that you will slack off preparing for the LSAT. There are splitters here on TLS that I have a lot of respect for because they put in the hard work and got accepted to great schools. (May I repeat...it is possible!)

All your research won't mean a thing if you pull a 158.
Although delusions of grandeur seem to be par for the course, so please let us know what exciting tidbits your research produces.

Best of luck; you'll need it.

[unodostres]

You can get 3.8+ without going to any class and being hungover most of the week. If you didn't find undergraduate extremely easy I wouldn't hold out for scoring 170+ on the LSAT. Actually, in general I wouldn't rely on scoring 170+ on the lsat.

I'm afraid we're going to have a difference of opinion here as I'm not sure you understand exactly what my situation was. I didn't try. I don't know how much more clear I can make that. It wasn't JUST partying. I was interested other things than class; making money and doing all sorts of reckless sh*t. It's not like I was partying and making room for studying. I didn't care for school and was getting into run-ins with the law (nothing terrible ever got on my record); I wasn't necessarily a model citizen.

But regardless for the reason, it doesn't matter. As far as the GPA goes, it is what it is, if you will.

And of course there are more drinking opportunities when you are in law school due to age, but when you are underage, you have the urge to do it more and are MUCH more reckless with it. It's fun to drink when you can't. So I'm going to have to disagree with that too.

I find it hard to believe I am COMPLETELY out of the running for a decent school that will lead me to have a good job (not necessarily an acceptance to Harvard a job with a top law firm starting at over 150k per year). There's students I know at the University of Washington, Seattle University and other regional schools that are doing great.

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm gonna do some more research.

hit 170+ and then come back. till then its not worth it. personal anecdotes don't mean much. expect median @ law school. see how that would place you.

[Rigo]

I've also learned that expressing slight opinion on TLS is seen as crying or whining and is a cardinal sin. Which is why no one likes lawyers (lol).

Add this to your prep books:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win ... nce_People

We have faith in you, Meezus! Don't let us down!

[03152016]

chiming in on lsat/gpa correlation for op and future people finding this thread

there are a lot of reasons why a poor ugpa wouldn't suggest poor future lsat performance to me: ug known for grade deflation, majored in a hard science, experienced some tragedy/personal turmoil, worked full-time, had pre-college credits count against their lsac ugpa, overloaded on credits, etc.

however, in my experience, the students i've had with very low ugpas for the most part have struggled on the lsat, even if the cause of the low ugpa was lack of work ethic in ug (and op's ugpa is lower than any student i've worked with except for one who ended up with a very low score)

i'd encourage op to use this as motivation to dive into the prep immediately, take the free online june test as soon as possible to get a sense of what you're in for, and start putting in heavy hours

[A. Nony Mouse]

People can do well coming out of other law schools than the T-14 or whatever metric you want to use. But you need to look at the employment statistics for those schools to decide whether the likely investment is worth the return you are likely to get.

People here generally believe that the economics of law school aren't worth it if you have to pay sticker at a school that doesn't give you a good chance of getting a biglaw job that will allow you to pay the debt off. Many people would even say that most of the T-14 aren't worth sticker price. Sticker price at many (most) schools is going to run you about $200k these days. If you don't get biglaw, you're likely looking at a $40-60k salary. Paying off $200k on a $40-60k salary is not remotely fun and the debt will handicap you for an extremely long time.

Obviously lots of people do go into that degree of debt to go to lower-ranked schools. For some of them it works out. But this is a risk-averse community, and the likelihood of success paying sticker at, say, Seattle, is extremely low (especially compared to the highest-ranked schools that many people here are considering).

So of course many people with lower GPAs pay sticker to go to law school, usually a school with weaker employment stats. You too can be one of them. That choice isn't going to get much support here, though, because to come out of law school unemployed with six figures of debt is an extremely dire outcome, and perfectly likely in that scenario.

You may be able to get money from a lower-ranked school, if you can get a sufficiently high LSAT. There are plenty here who would say you shouldn't do that, either. But if you don't have to pay tuition, coming out of school unemployed isn't so dire (you'll still have debt, but not crippling debt), so it's less of a terrible idea. (Again, many here will say don't do that either if the school doesn't have good enough stats, but you're the one taking the risk and it's your right to do so.)

[meezus]

Well I'm not just going to sacrifice my education, time and money and go to any law school just because I want to be a lawyer so bad. I know that it has to be a reputable school with some pretty good employment stats. If not, it's just not going to happen. I'm not dumb, I'm not going to take the LSAT and accept any offer that I get. Not to say that I deserve some excellent offer but if it isn't worth the investment I'll have to find something else, but I'm not going to give up before I start, as some people suggest.

It's completely reasonable for people to believe I can't achieve 170+ on the LSAT bearing in mind that you know my uGPA. I know it's a hard feat for someone who has a 3.7 as well.

I've also learned that expressing slight opinion on TLS is seen as crying or whining and is a cardinal sin. Which is why no one likes lawyers (lol).

Add this to your prep books:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win ... nce_People"

We have faith in you, Meezus! Don't let us down!

HAHA that's good! You remind me of a lawyer I know...

[Gray]

.

[03152016]

yeah, what nony said
it's about outcomes op

of course you'll get into "tier 1" schools with a 2.65 and a half-decent lsat
tulane's 25th gpa is 3.12 and their 75th lsat is 162
you wouldn't have to be an lsat whiz kid to get in

but going to tulane without serious serious money is a horrifying nightmare
you have to make your numbers competitive enough so the economics make sense
and that's going to be extremely difficult, which is why some people are responding negatively

but i'm sure at this point you're more than sufficiently aware of the uphill climb ahead of you

[meezus]

As a regretful former college slacker, I'd just like to say that the LSAT is an amazing opportunity to earn a second chance if you can get your shit together.

I have a few years of W/E now, and my PTs are averaging 176 coming up on test day. I have a 3.15, but as long as I don't drop the ball on the 27th, my chances aren't terrible.

On Brut's point, I think the main reason for my own discrepancy in LSAT vs. GPA is effort. After working full-time for a while and having a lot more personal responsibility, my work ethic is entirely different than it was as an undergrad. I've been studying for the LSAT consistently since May, which is the most I've ever studied for anything in my life.

I did have a high diagnostic, but I think if you give yourself enough time and commit to studying effectively, it's possible. 2.65 is pretty low, but NU might bite if you have significant work exp and a high LSAT.

That's very encouraging, thanks. What did you graduate with/what did you do after college for W/E?

Good luck on that LSAT! Seems like you've been putting in immense amounts work studying since May, wouldn't surprise me if you scored above 170.

And Brut, that's very true. I want to make sure that it is an economically sound decision. The better the school, the more I am willing to take on the debt. You are right, I am 100% cognizant of my uphill battle that is to come. I'm just trying to do the best I can with it.

But now, it's off to study for the LSAT.

[03152016]

yeah me too smcc, lsat was the first time i've really studied hard
i bombed ug, and i was a music major at a bottom-tier state school
i'm, of course, talking in broad generalities

[Gray]

.

[Nomo]

Undergraduate grades have consequences. You're not going to move past those grades in a year or two. You say you're willing to do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes is way more time consuming than that. You're going to need to establish yourself as someone important. Americorps, Peace Corps, 2 years at Goldman Sachs, or working for a Senator won't make you important. They will make you just like every other person at a T-14 law school. You need to do something much more impressive.

The second thing you have to do is score really high on the LSAT. But you need to do both.

[BigZuck]

Disclaimer: I tend to be one of the more cynical people here, so take with the appropriate heaping of salt

The main reason why I strongly suggest pursuing something else other than law school is because even in the unlikely event you win, you lose. If you get into a school like NU, that would be a pretty amazing accomplishment and a major coup. But, you'll certainly be over 200K in debt like Nony said, and perhaps closer to 300K. So then, you have to get big law. But your chances at that aren't amazing. A cynic might say they are close to 50/50, someone more optimistic might say your odds are closer to 75% likely. So, a decent chance you will still strike out. And then if you get big law, it'll likely be in an expensive city (most likely New York) where your take home will be close to 100K after taxes. With that, you have to budget to try and pay off your debt, all the while living and doing a job you may or may not hate (which a lot of people do). At best, you'll probably only last like 5 years, in which case you'll probably still be 100K in debt. Those are a lot of ifs, and lots of things could go bad along the way (bad law school grades, get unlucky and strike out, have to leave big law after a year or two, etc.)

In a pretty much best case scenario, 8 years from now you'll be 100K in debt and in a job that earns you about 100k a year. If you really want to be a lawyer (which I can't imagine how you could know that as a K-JD, but ok) then maybe that sounds appealing to you. Or, it might be better to start a career now, ideally in the city of your choice, with no debt, and hopefully in 8 years you're making a decent salary. But, I know it's rough for people with just a bachelor's degree now, so maybe I'm being too optimistic on that front. I dunno. I just don't think you can assume that getting into a great school and coping a high paying job will be super awesome. The debt will most likely haunt you for a long time.

[DecisionTime999]

Just chiming in to mirror what I imagine most people have already told you - your GPA sucks, softs are irrelevant, and if you really want to go to law school then all that matters right now is how well you do on the LSAT, so go study.

[reasonable person]

Get a 168 this cycle and go to WUSTL on a full ride or NU at sticker.

[Iroh]

LOL I'm trying to figure out if you've been reading this post, or reading a different article and then responding on this one. Where did you get that? The whole point of this entire topic is for me to find something TO DISTANCE myself from my GPA and I AM willing to put all the time in to do that. And throughout my posts on here, I have admitted that I know I am not entitled to anything and I do not expect to be by any means, therefore I am most definitely not saying I was unjustly denied anything. Maybe I'm not sure what you mean, or you just like to argue. But you are right about one thing, I am not very keen on joining the military.

Gee, where did I get the idea that you were unjustly denied something?

So that's it? Anyone who did poorly in undergrad has absolutely no other option for going to law school? I didn't know the law school admission operated on such simple principle. I'm going to have to ask for a better explanation than "no, softs really don't matter".

Quite frankly, it's unfair and doesn't give those who have a stellar GPA a shot to achieve more.

My problem comes in where those who do not fit in the higher GPA category, it seems as if they are doomed and there is no other option to redeem oneself, regardless if it is only a year or two out.

So no, you did not explicitly say that you were unjustly denied anything. You just gave a very strong impression that this is what you think.

I don't know what you want. You say you're willing to put in the work to distance yourself from your GPA. So how many years of your life are you willing to give up? Because unless you do something really impressive, I don't see you getting into any school worth the money for quite some time, barring a high LSAT. Most of the people I know who got into good schools with a GPA like yours A) had a high LSAT, and either B) were hard science majors, which mitigated their GPAs, or C) had many, many years (like a decade) of interesting or prestigious work experience to distance themselves from their GPAs.

I'm not saying your GPA precludes you from having a successful career. Far from it. What I'm saying is it prevents you from having the typical entry-level prestigious careers that are attractive to law schools, like financing and consulting. That's not to say you can't be successful. You could start your own business (which would be a great soft if it was successful). You could become an artist, the editor of the New York Times, a prizefighter, a professional poker player (who I think was admitted to YLS not that long ago) etc. But to do any of those things, you'll have to give up a significant chunk of your life to build that career.

Your work experience only really becomes a fair substitute for GPA when there is so much time between when you finished undergrad, and When You Apply to Law School, that your undergrad career no longer reflects your capabilities. You have nothing to show them now, and you won't have much more to show them in the next couple of years. So if you really want to boost your application (aside from getting a high LSAT) use the next 5-10 years to build an actual career. But once you have that successful career, you might not want to be a lawyer anymore.

[03152016]

Get a 168 this cycle and go to WUSTL on a full ride or NU at sticker.

wat

[Rigo]

Get a 168 this cycle and go to WUSTL on a full ride or NU at sticker.

wat

Reasonable Person ain't so reasonable.

[McAvoy]

Get a 168 this cycle and go to WUSTL on a full ride or NU at sticker.

wat

Reasonable Person ain't so reasonable.

[TheSpanishMain]

Get a 168 this cycle and go to WUSTL on a full ride or NU at sticker.

Nah, don't do that. NU at sticker is bad for all the reasons Zuck laid out.